Finding New Leadership Power in the Old Testament With Sandra Richter

[: 00:04

[Thibodeaux]

Welcome, everybody, to Faithful on the Clock, the podcast where every hot dog goes in the bun to get your faith and work aligned. Today I am thrilled to welcome an incredibly special guest, Old Testament scholar Sandra Richter. If you’ve ever wondered if the Old Testament is still relevant for your leadership and what it has to teach you for your career, Sandra clears it all up for you. Plus, we talk about her latest work, which covers the story of Deborah, one of the Bible’s most interesting female leaders. Settle in, because we’re starting our 45-minute chat right now.

[: 00:46

[Thibodeaux]

Today on the podcast, I have biblical scholar, speaker, author and environmental theologist Sandra Richter. Sandra is the Robert H Gundry Chair of Biblical Studies at Westmont College in Santa Barbara, California. She has a PhD in Hebrew Bible from Harvard University and an MA in theological studies from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. She's taught at Asbury Theological Seminary, Wesley Biblical Seminary and Wheaton College, and as an educator, has led student groups to Israel to study historical geography and field archeology. Sandy is also a member of the New International Version translation committee. She is also the author of The Epic of Eden, a Christian Entry Into the Old Testament, as well as other books and study curriculums. Her newest curriculum, from HarperCollins resources, focuses on Deborah and the book of Judges, and she has a forthcoming documentary on Deuteronomy with Eermans. So, impressive to say the least.

[Richter]

Thank you.

[Thibodeaux]

Sandy, welcome to Faithful on the Clock. I'm really honored that you're here.

[Richter]

Oh, it's so much fun to be here. Thank you for the invitation. And I'm eager to talk to the — about the Bible from your perspective and the perspective of what you do.

[: 01:44

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. So, you know, to kind of jump off your bio a little bit, you know, obviously, you know, you are focused on the Old Testament. So, just to start out, I was really curious about what got you started in that direction. You know, what — what made you interested in studying specifically that part of the Bible?

[Richter]

You know, it's funny. I'm — I'm sure, similar to a lot of people's professional paths, this wasn't actually the plan. I started off heading into ministry, and I was in a particular denomination. I got my license. I'm serving. I'm in a generation where women are not particularly welcome in those roles. And real early on, I felt underprepared. The denomination I was in only required an undergraduate degree. So, I was serving in Western Mass, and I was like, okay, well, Gordon-Conwell's over there on the North Shore. I can drive in and pick up a class here and there, and, you know, kind of augment my training. So, that was the plan, and it was about a two and a half hour commute, so it would be a serious commitment in the middle of the week, and I just started filling in the gaps. I had no intention of getting a degree. I didn't need a degree, and the gaps were primarily in the Old Testament. Like a lot of people in the church. We don't educate people in the Old Testament. It's too hard, right? So, I started taking exegesis classes in Hebrew language, and it's — it's filling in the gaps and rounding out the picture. And as I'm moving forward in my own career and finding that my best skills are in the classroom and constantly having the pushback from the bureaucracy of my particular denomination, God just sort of redirected my plan. And by the time I was done with Gordon-Conwell, I had an MA in theological studies with an emphasis on the Old Testament, because that's where the gaps were. And I had also made use of something called the Boston Theological Institute that Gordon-Conwell was famous for, and that's a coalition of all the Boston schools. So, I was down at Harvard doing all of my advanced Hebrew language stuff, and between being, you know, abjectly terrified of what was expected of me and loving every minute of it when I took that step into the academy, it just made perfect sense that I should go into Old Testament. So, it was, it was a mixture of — of serendipity and falling in love with this part of redemptive history that doesn't get near enough attention.

[: 04:54

[Thibodeaux]

Sure. Well, that kind of leads into the second question that I was going to ask you, because, as you said, you know, teaching the Old Testament, I think is hard, and I think we have a tendency, you know, forgive me if I'm wrong in this, but we have a tendency to maybe view that as, like, oh, that's the part of the Bible that has all the rules. And, you know, we see, God is angry a lot, and, you know, we don't like that, so we want to skip ahead to the — the, quote, good stuff.

[Richter]

Let's go to the good part.

[Thibodeaux]

Right, right.

[Richter]

I sometimes speak of the Old Testament as the unfortunate preface to the part of the Bible that really matters.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah.

[Richter]

And if we got an honest report from most folk, that's probably what we'd hear. Yeah.

[Thibodeaux]

Well, you know, you know, as I've studied it more though, you know, and I certainly have a lot more to do, but the way that I see it now, you know, you kind of talk about how — how they are connected, but the energy of the Old Testament, I think, does lead to the energy of the New Testament. So, if you understand that preface, as you put it, you know, I think the Old Testament, or the New Testament, seems even greater, you know. So, I'm grateful to people like you who can shine a light on it and make that easier to understand, so that the New Testament actually makes sense.

[Richter]

Yeah, so with my — with my undergrads these days, because, of course, their — their cultural narratives are different than ours were, right? But I tell them that reading the New Testament without reading the Old Testament, without understanding the storyline, is like picking up Harry Potter in book five. Who would ever do that? Yeah, and how in the world are you going to make sense of this kid with a lightning bolt scar on his forehead if you haven't read books one through four, right? So, I so agree with you that the Old Testament is if, well, not just a preface, right? That would be my — my, my kind of sarcastic treatment of the dismissal of the Old Testament, but it's the foundation of the story. It's the great epic. And there is no way we're going to fully understand Jesus, Christ, the son of Abraham, the son of David, the last Adam, the Prophet, Priest and King, and final mediator between God and man, if we don't know what all of the references to those titles are.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah, I would agree. And especially, you know, when Jesus says, you know, I came to fulfill the law, well, then you've got to know the law, you know, before that. So, you know, I think that is a huge part of it. You know, but to — to get back to that idea of that energy, what would you tell people who kind of have this idea that, oh, the Old Testament is stuffy, like, how — what would you say to change their mind?

[Richter]

Well, — I do that all the time. Yeah. In the — the introduction to Epic of Eden, the book that you named in my intro, I talk about the nature of the Bible itself, which, of course, is the great history of redemption. It is God's self revelation to humanity. It doesn't have every detail about the great story of redemption or about God's character. It's what is essential for us to know. So, my first point would be, what in the world are we doing, ignoring the first two thirds of God's self revelation of His character. So, first of all, that's just illogical, right? But then what I try to do so much in my teaching is draw people into the story, to remind them that, according to the book of Galatians, that you and I are the heirs of Abraham, that what we have inherited are the promises that are articulated in Genesis 12, one through three. And in that inheritance, that is how a Jew and Gentile, slave and free, male and female, can step up to the cross and say, we are co-heirs of this kingdom. I talk to them about the story of Exodus, the greatest account of redemption revealed to humanity prior to the empty tomb, when God claims a slave race that nobody else wants, pulls them out of poverty, slavery and certain death from the clutches of the most powerful empire of all time, and then grants them a new identity, which is the identity of His name. And if that doesn't get our blood pumping, if that doesn't remind us of the great story of the cross and the empty tomb, then we don't have a pulse, is what I would say. So, honestly, I talk to people about reintroducing them to their people, and the fact that the church today is — is failing because it doesn't know who it is. Why doesn't the church know who it is? Because it doesn't know who it was. And when we reintroduce the present community of faith to their great story, to who they actually are, in the greatest rescue plan of all time, it — it puts us in a place where our story now surrounds us with Bose surround sound and we're ready to step back into the fight.

[Thibodeaux]

Sure. Well, I think what's — what's so striking to me, you know, when you're talking about, you know, the fact that nobody wanted Israel, you know, but that's who He picked to save, yes, and quite frankly, you know, when I — when I think about how the world is now, I think there are a lot of people who feel that way. They're not wanted, that they don't know where they fit, they don't know why they're important. So, to me, if you understand Israel, you understand yourself.

[Richter]

Yes.

[Thibodeaux]

You know what I mean? That you understand if He can redeem them, if He can still want them, you know, you are their descendants. He still wants you. You're a part of that. And that —

[Richter]

Amen.

[Thibodeaux]

— to me, gives a ton of meaning to, you know, as you're reading that scripture.

[Richter]

And even when we give our salvation stories, and I'll talk to my — my undergrads about this a good bit, we’ll — we’ll stand in front of the community of faith, and we'll talk about how we've been delivered, how we've been freed from sin, the poverty of our past lives. This is the language we'll use, but none that — none of us actually have ever been slaves. Most of us have not truly uh, needed to be militarily delivered from an empire. But we use that language, and the reason we use that language is because our story is the story of Israel, and we are redeploying the language of a slave race being delivered from certain death and poverty when we talk about our salvation story.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah.

[Richter]

And when Paul picks it up in 1 Corinthians 3, and he says, there are not many among you who were wealthy or noble or powerful, and yet God has chosen the weak things of this world to shame the strong and the poor things of this world to to shame the rich, and that's who you are. Well, as you've already said, that is the great story of Israel, and it's the great story of the church all over again.

[: 12:36

[Thibodeaux]

Mm, hmm, for sure. Yeah. So, you know, with that commentary on like, you know, the — the world is kind of in a bad way, we are in a bad way, you know, as you have studied and done your work, how has that impacted your view of the world and what we need and what we're going through?

[Richter]

That's a — that is a great question. Lots and lots of things, but the first one that jumps to the top of my mind is, ever since the fall, it has always been this way. And you and I will often read the scriptures and think that — that there was some idyllic time when the people of God were not struggling for their very survival, and we would be wrong. The people of God have always struggled because we are citizens of another kingdom. We are citizens of an Eden before fall. We are citizens of the Heavenly Kingdom. And so when you pause on the prophets of the Old Covenant, or you pause over Paul in the New Covenant, you will hear both sets of voices decrying the wickedness of this world, the siege of sickness and war and injustice and poverty that the human race is dealing with. So, if the prophets — Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel — if Paul, are all talking about this flood of suffering and just general wrongness, then we should not be surprised that the lives we live are lived in the midst of that wrongness, and that we are the living breathing testimony of that other kingdom, and as the living breathing testimony of that other kingdom we should expect to suffer.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah.

[Richter]

Which is very un-American. We don't like this.

[Thibodeaux]

Well, you know, but as they say, there is nothing new under the sun either. And I think that's kind of the point you're getting as like, we've been here before —

[Richter]

Yes.

[Thibodeaux]

— and we're always going to be here until he comes back.

[Richter]

Yeah. And we've — and we've always suffered, and we've always been the force that has changed the direction of the story. A little anecdote I had some of my students in Israel, couple years back. Israel has gotten to be a very difficult place to visit these days, but we were there in 22 — 22, and yeah, what year is it now? It's 24. Okay. So, we were there in 22, and I brought them to visit some old friends of mine that are past students as well, Nabil and Sana Samara. And Nabil was educated at Asbury Theological he is an Arab Israeli Christian. If you want to be persecuted, claim those identities in northern Israel. And with his education, he's been working with Bethlehem Bible College. He's been working with some of the refugees. He's training a lot of pastors. And my West Coast students were all full of, you know this — this narrative of — of the oppressed and persecution, and how we need to flip the paradigm, all this sort of reality that is the ideology of our age. And so, they’re pressing Nabil on — on the fact that he's suffering. And as someone of Arab birth is suffering, and basically, what does Nabil want us as Americans to do to throw off the yoke of suffering? And this amazing brother in Christ looked into the eyes of my 20-year-old student, and he said, “Brother, we're citizens of the kingdom of God. We expect to suffer. Don't you?” And, yeah.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah.

[Richter]

Stopped that conversation, kind of dead in its tracks. Of course we expect to suffer.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah.

[Richter]

And glory to God that Nabil and Sana are willing to suffer for the cause of the kingdom.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. Well, I mean, that just kind of goes to show you, like, even little moments like that, and you know, you were talking about, like, the prophets thing, but like, I think those small moments of leadership like that makes such a difference because, you know, as we were talking, like, with mental health, so, like, you don't know what somebody's going through, and you don't know what moment they're in, that they'll need that leadership to bring them back to God and keep them on the right track. So, you never know, you know what, what will come of that. I think that's awesome. So you know to — to kind of focus on that idea of leadership then, so, when you're talking about the Old Testament and you're getting into that leadership concept, you know, what is the biggest leadership takeaway that you can give people from the Old Testament? Or maybe — maybe, like, two or three if you want to go out?

[Richter]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny that again, folks think that if they want to study leadership, that Jesus is the paradigm. Let's stick with the New Testament. And of course, Jesus is the paradigm, and it is wise and good and right for us to study Him and how He leads. But reality is there are numerous narratives in the Old Testament that are focused specifically on what kingdom leadership looks like. And if I — and I'm often asked to speak on leadership, particularly, I've worked with the Murdoch Trust up in the Pacific Northwest a number of times, and their whole gig is leadership. So, where do you go in the Old Testament to study leadership? Well, a primary place you go is 1 and 2 Samuel, which is the telling of a tale, a narrative where we have two major characters who are set off as foils, one for the other. One is David, and one is Saul. And the question that the Biblical author is turning over and over and over is, what does wise leadership look like? What is Kingdom leadership look like? And what is foolish non-Kingdom leadership look like? And Saul is the paradigm of one, and David is the paradigm of the other. And there are so many lessons in the mix. But one place we could go is David's call narratives. And there are three of them, which surprises the casual reader, because you come across the first call narrative, which is Samuel, the prophet, choosing David as a teenager when he has the choice of all eight of Jesse's sons standing in front of him, and Samuel chooses David. And we're told specifically that he chooses David because the Holy Spirit's leading and because of the content of David's character. Man looks on the outward appearance. God looks on the heart. So, that's the first call narrative. It's character and it's Holy Ghost gifting. Then the second call narrative is when Saul is losing his mind because he has disobeyed the Almighty, and he's losing his calling, his anointing, and David is called in as his musician, right? And he plays the lyre, whatever a lyre was, some sort of stringed instrument, and it calms Saul's ragged soul. Hm, what does the narrator want you to know? He wants you to know that David is a man of worship, and the fact that David is going to be associated with the book of Psalms is, you know, drawn front and center. Then the third call narrative is the one that everyone out there has heard, regardless if they've ever walked in the front door of a church, and that's the story of David and Goliath. What happens there? But a young man of excellent character steps up and says, that giant, that enemy against whom I have no hope of military success is mocking the character of my God, and I'm going to go down swinging for the cause, and I'm willing to be collateral damage for the cause of the kingdom. That's ultimately what the message of that narrative is. And with God's assistance, David actually defeats the great enemy of the kingdom of God. So, a man of character and calling, a man of worship and humility, and a man who's willing to take it on the chin for the cause of the kingdom, even if it costs him his personal success. And then the other huge narrative about David is the Bathsheba story, where David completely fails. He abuses his power. He utilizes his insider status to not only exclude a man of good character, Uriah, the Hittite, but to have him murdered. And then he pulls in his confidants to become participants in the murder. I mean, David has failed on every possible front, and he tries to cover it up, as most of us would. And then the representative of the kingdom, Nathan the prophet, steps into his courtroom, calls him out, calls him out in public, calls him out on — on Twitter, on Instagram, on you know, the Washington Post headlines, and David as a true servant of the kingdom. And he hit such a huge lesson. He bows the knee to the law of God, and I can guarantee you, in any other ancient Near Eastern courtroom, meaning throne room, where the enlisted men are lining the walls and the king is elevated on a platform, that prophet would have died where he stood, and instead David repents. So, as we compare David and Saul, that last lesson we hear is, when you are confronted with your own failings, leader of whatever context you find yourself in, are you going to repent and allow God to reshape you into the leader who needs or are you going to rationalize and you're going to try to cover it up, and the pathway to failure is rationalization. The pathway to success is honest repentance. And that's one of 16 lessons we could pull out of that narrative that I believe is designed specifically to teach us about leadership.

[Thibodeaux]

I love how you're breaking that down, though, because I think a lot of us, you know, like in the business space, at least, like, when we talk about leadership, it's always like, you know, these top 10 lists of traits that you can develop, you know, charisma and all that, but —

[Richter]

It's always top 10. What is that?

[Thibodeaux]

I don't know. I don't know. It's just nice, and even I guess, you know. But, you know, as I think about that, you know, the way you are breaking it down, it's — as you're talking about repentance, it's not about being perfect. It's not about, like you're saying, rationalization, because we're good at that. But rationalization can get you into a lot of trouble, too, because you can rationalize sin all over the place. You know what I mean?

[Richter]

Yes.

[Thibodeaux]

So, you know, the fact that, you know, when you fail, and you know that you failed, you pick it up and you say, now, how — you know, we talk about being resilient. To me, that is the definit — definition of being resilient, is, can you repent and then move forward in a completely new direction that God wants you to do.

[Richter]

Yeah.

[Thibodeaux]

One that you didn't even plan.

[Richter]

Yes. And can you bear that moment when you stand in front of your constituency and you say, I blew it, I'm sorry. Will you trust me to try this again? And I am sure that there are scenarios where your constitu — your constituency says, heck, no, you know you're out of here, but resiliency, like you're saying, is picking up the ashes. In fact, the proverb says it this way: A righteous man falls seven times and rises again, but a wicked man stumbles and is cast headlong. I like to translate this, and you know, it's Richter's translation, a righteous man falls seven times and gets up eight. That's the difference. And over and over again, with the Saul and David scenario, we see Saul rationalizing his crimes, and we see David forthrightly repenting of his crimes. And for me, myself, I mean, I'm embedded in institutions left and right, and nine times out of 10 my leadership tries to cover up their failures, and nine times out of 10, they tried to cover up someone else's crime. And I'm not stupid. It's like, I will do so much better, if you will just tell me the truth. Tell me the truth. Tell me you're sorry, and — and let's try again. Sure, because I — I — I have confidence in your skill set. I just don't have confidence in your integrity. Will you show me some integrity? You know?

[: 26:24

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. This — this kind of raises an interesting point, though, given the culture that we are in. Because, I mean, we hear of all these scandals all the time, right? And, like, cancel culture.

[Richter]

Yes.

[Thibodeaux]

So, what is a leader, from your perspective, you know, what is a leader supposed to do when you want to be like David, you want to repent, and essentially the world won't let you?

[Richter]

Yeah.

[Thibodeaux]

You know, where they are not believing the fact that you really do have some integrity and you want to get back on the right track. Like, what do you do?

[Richter]

Yeah, um, so one of the things I find very interesting about the book of Psalms — and this is one of my curriculums — is the — the leading genre in the book of Psalms is the hymn, right? The celebratory, just beautiful, poetic expression of our worship of the Almighty. But the second genre is the lament. We hear a lot of lament right now in diversity, racism conversations, and sometimes that's okay, but mostly they haven't taken the time to actually study a lament. So, looking at a lament, a lament always ends, first of all, with a celebration of the psalmist’s confidence in God's integrity, that God can and will handle this. So, they always end there, which is very powerful. But in the middle, that worshiper is going to let God have it. They're going to let God have it over their current suffering. And there are two primary causes of suffering that show up in the laments all the time. One is physical suffering over disease or injury. But the other one — and this is where I'm targeting in on your question — is slander. Slander. That is either — either the number one or very close second source of the psalmist agony, and this is before the days of the Internet and before the days of the New York Times and The Washington Post. And yet these Psalmists, these leaders, are agonizing over the impact of slanderous speech. And as you know, the book of Proverbs is full of wise sayings about the destructive force of the slanderer and the gossip. And in fact, one of the top 10 is, don't bear false report against your neighbor. And we seem, especially in the Christian community, to overlook that one on a regular basis. So, all that to say, this business of stepping forward and said, I blew it is indeed going to result in a feeding frenzy, depending on how powerful you are, like no one goes after you if they're not jealous of you. No one goes after you if you don't have the kind of power and resources that they wish they had, right? But if you've got that power, if you've got that influence, if your face is out there and you admit a blunder or a crime, feeding frenzy, here it comes. So, what would I say? You're not alone. What would I say? The ancients who have walked this path before us know exactly the spaces you're navigating, and they have chosen integrity over and over again, and the ones that didn't choose integrity, well, where did Saul wind up? What happened to Saul's dynasty? Yeah, and what happened to David's dynasty, with these horrible crimes? I mean, he broke pretty much every rule we've got, and yet, with honest repentance and tenacity, he survives. So, I am not going to be Pollyanna about this and expect that if you as a leader, step forward to your constituency and honestly report your failings, that it's going to be a smooth ride and everybody's going to hail you as honest and wonderful. You might lose that post. But when you circle back around, another life lesson from David, our young hero, spends 15 years in exile. 15 years. We don't tell that part of his story. And during those 15 years, his boss is literally trying to kill him.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah.

[Richter]

Now, I've had difficult jobs before. I've had bosses go after me. I've had bosses be jealous of me. I've had them undermine me in the public square.

[Thibodeaux]

Yep.

[Richter]

But I have never had one try to kill me. His boss is literally trying to kill him. And he spends those days serving the kingdom and trusting God anyway. In fact, Robin Hood and his mighty men, that story originates with David's exile. He gathers a bunch of other young men who have wound up on the wrong side of the current government, and he spends those 15 years honing his skills, doing battle against the Philistine border towns that are trying to seize territory from Judah. And so, he battles these Philistine border towns, and I mean, on the border of Israel. He pushes them back. He loots their towns — here's the Robin Hood deal — loots their towns and gives the loot to the little Judean towns that are barely making it on the borders, robs — what is it, steals from the rich and gives to the poor?

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah.

[Richter]

And in those 15 years, even though he is an outcast and in exile, he's still building the kingdom. He's still exercising the integrity of his true allegiance, and when he finally steps back into the public eye, they trust him. Hey, they trust him. And he winds up with the kingdom.

[Thibodeaux]

I think what impresses me about this too, and we kind of had talked about at the beginning, you know, about how, you know, the Old Testament kind of leads to the New. But this reminds me, too, that we have to look at those failures that we have in our leadership, or just, you know, everyday life, you know, that that's not the whole story, you know, that we can have that recovery and we can — that one failure doesn't mean that we don't have integrity at all. It just means we slipped up, and we've got to, like you said, come full circle, so that we can start our work again for God. You know, and I think if we, if we keep that big, you know, zoomed out picture of that, you know, that can help us a little bit to not get so, you know, in the tar of that when we're in it. Because I think a lot of us do, you know, we — when we mess up and everybody's on us, you know, they don't want to forgive us. You know, it just feels awful.

[Richter]

And they’re reciting our crimes in every possible arena.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. It’s on every headline.

[Richter]

Yeah. And then, of course, the stories expand, and before you know it, people are feeling comfortable saying things about you that have absolutely no basis in truth, right?

[: 33:53

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah, sure. Well, we — I know we've talked a lot about David, you know, but part of your work, you know, as your — your new book is focused on Deborah, so I want to make sure that I talk about that a little bit.

[Richter]

Thank you.

[Thibodeaux]

Just tell me a little bit about that story and what captivated that about you — or, for you.

[Richter]

Yeah, well, she is an absolute rock star. And you know, especially for us women who are in leadership and women who are pressing into spaces that have traditionally belonged to men, Deborah is a wonderful case study for us, and I — I encourage your audience to get your hands on the curriculum. So, it all starts off with the fact that she is called to lead during the era of the judges, which when we talk about a world gone wrong, the era of the judges is the darkest, most morally compromised era of Israel's entire story. So, one of the things you'll find in the book of Judges is lots and lots of bad behavior, even by the leaders. It's kind of the Wild West of Israel's settlement period where the good guys and the bad guys are just a few inches apart, and we're still trying to figure out, you know, the shootout at the OK Corral, who actually started it and — and did the good guys win? We're not clear. Okay. Moving that up a little bit, maybe the Tony Starks, the Batmans, you know, these — these good guys that — that have a very dark side to them. Okay. So, all of that is going on in the book of Judges, and specifically, I find it very interesting. There are a lot of stories about the just outright abuse of women, because in this society gone wrong, they are repeatedly the victims of the bad behavior. Okay? So in this context, we have our girl step forward. And according to the book of Judges, she will lead this country for over 40 years. So, that means she had to start pretty young, because life spans were not that long.

[Thibodeaux]

Sure.

[Richter]

So, we got a woman who starts showing up in these contexts, probably in her 20s. She is named as a mother in Israel. She's married to Lapidoth, who we hear very little about. I think he's probably a military man. She is named both prophet and judge. There's only one other character in the book of Judges who gets those hallmarks, and that's the super rock star Samuel, who will usher in the kingdom. He's the prophet who anoints Saul. He's the prophet who anoints David, right? So, she's of that status. She's both prophet and judge. She rules for over 40 years. She is morally unambiguous, unlike a Gideon or a Samson, so very highly esteemed. And one of the things I think your audience will find very interesting is there's only one particular story of hers that makes the canon. So, think about the prophet Jonah. We know he was a career prophet in the northern kingdom, but only one story winds up in the text that, business about a large aquatic mammal who swallows him. It's a good story. It belongs in there. For her, the only story that winds up in the canon is the story of the Battle for the Jezreel. And we know that surrounding that story — similar to what we've talked about with David — is a long obedience in the same direction. This woman is faithful. This woman is tough. This woman steps into difficult spaces in a world where women simply don't lead. I mean, we think we've got it rough. My goodness, this is a patriarchal, patrilineal, patrilocal culture where women stay home. And yet, Deborah is acting as essentially the Supreme Court Justice of Israel for an entire generation. So, we can picture here — her, as we think about your particular audience, as the young female professional who was scrambling to get out the door with throw up on one shoulder, a pacifier tucked in one pocket, trying to get her unruly, didn't-get-enough-sleep toddler strapped into the car seats so she can get to preschool and drop her off on her way to the office. I mean, this would have been Deborah's early days. And by the time we meet her, she's probably more of a seasoned Margaret Thatcher. And when she steps forward into the story, Israel has been abused and oppressed by a particular Canaanite warlord and his — we don't know Sisera's ethnic extraction, he might have been Philistine — who were controlling not only the wealthiest part of the kingdom and the most essential trade routes of the kingdom, but that land, by Yahweh's decree, belongs to Issachar, Naftali, and Zebulon. And our team has been pushed back into the hill country because they've either been unable or too afraid to fight for what Yahweh has already says is theirs. And so, Deborah steps up and says, it's time, boys. It's time. We're going to fight for it. And that kind of leadership, that kind of courage, where she could have just stayed in her little office in her little power suit, and never, you know, never challenged the status quo, first of all, super inspires me. And then the fact that when she summons Barack, her local clan commander, and says it's time, sir, and he says, yes, ma'am, but you do realize that if we challenge Sisera, we are all going to die because we do not have the power — firepower to take on this battle. And her response is, is there a problem, captain? And he says, no, ma'am, no, ma'am, let's go.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah.

[Richter]

And so, she challenges status quo. She steps into arenas that every other leader would be terrified to step into. She has earned the kind of credibility where not only Barak, but 10,000 farmers-turned-warriors of Naftali respond to their summons, and all of these men charged down off the front side of Mount Tabor, knowing that they are essentially charging the gates of Mordor, and they're all going to die. And they all do this based on Deborah's word. Okay, that's the kind of leader I want to be.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah, yeah, you and me both.

[Richter]

Yeah, yeah.

[Thibodeaux]

What — what amazes me about her story, too, is that, you know — well, not just her story, but every, pretty much every leader that you see in the Bible — when they really got in the thick of it, like, it — like, she had — they weren't leaning on themselves. The reason they charged down the hill, you know, or whatever, into the battle, is because they knew who were — was fighting for them, and they — they had that faith of what integrity looked like, and they knew why it mattered, and they were willing to fight for that more than anything else. You know, that — that meant something. And so, for me, those stories like that's what I cling to. You know, it doesn't matter what you're going through. It doesn't matter what the odds are. What are you truly fighting for? Does that have purpose? What impact can that have?

[Richter]

I love that. And I love that about David, and I love that about Deborah, that ultimately, they are not fighting for themselves. They are not fighting for their own career and their own status and their own kingdom. In fact, that would be yet another lesson that comes out of the David story. Whose kingdom are you fighting for? Whose kingdom are you building? And if you're building the kingdom of God, you're going to be fine. If you're building your own kingdom, it's all going to come crashing down.

[Thibodeaux]

Yep.

[Richter]

So, in the Deborah curriculum, I ask the same three questions over and over again. And the first one I ask is, what territory can you see from where you're standing that you know belongs in the hands of the — of the people of God, and for whatever reason, it's not in the hands of the people of God just yet? So, that's question one, what territory can you see? Question two, is it worth fighting for? And then question number three, what are you going to do about it? Yeah, and that whole bystander dynamic, what is someone else going to do about it? What is the president of my institution going to do about it? What is my —in my world — what is my dean going to do about it? What is my department chair going to do about it? What is, you know, no, no, no, what are you gonna do about it?

[Thibodeaux]

Well, you know, if you think about it, you know, we — we do hear that message a lot, though, like, that we can be empowered to take small steps, and, you know, make a difference, right? Well, then do it, you know? But like, just — just take — take it up, you know? And the difference is that when you take it up for God, you're doing it for Him, whereas if you're taking it up for yourself, just to gain your own position or fame or whatever it is, that's for yourself, you know. And so if you can differentiate those two and who you're fighting for, that’s powerful.

[Richter]

Yeah, it is. It is so powerful. And there was something you were saying just there, differentiating between who you're fighting for. Bystander effect. I don't know. It'll come back, but I'm with you. I'm with you, sister.

[: 43:53

[Thibodeaux]

Good, good. Well, just, you know, as we're wrapping up here, I want to make sure that people can, you know, get to your work and make sure that they understand exactly who you are, what you're up to. So, let us know, how can people find you if they want to learn more?

[Richter]

Well, one way they can find me, I have a public facing Facebook page. There's — there's no friend requirements or any of that sort of thing. Sandra Lynn Richter. It's out there. You can find me on that. Um, my publishers have got me out there on Instagram, and we're putting up a website. Finding my work, the easiest way to find it is Amazon. Every Bible study I've published, the Epic of Eden Bible study series, is — is on Amazon, and you can get it from the original publishers, and you might get a better deal that way, but you can find it on Amazon. So, the Epic of Eden Bible study series has got six titles in it right now. And then there is the IVP book, The Epic of Eden. Then there's a whole bunch of technical stuff about the deuteronistic history and the name theology that your people might not be as interested in, but it's out there too.

[: 45:05

[Thibodeaux]

Okay. Well, Sandy, thank you so much for being on the show. Do you mind if I close out and just pray for you for a little bit?

[Richter]

Oh, I would love that.

[Thibodeaux]

Thank you.

[Richter]

Thank you very much.

[Thibodeaux]

Okay, sure.

Lord, I just ask that You continue to guide Sandra with everything that she's doing, because, as we have said, the work that she does is incredibly important to make sure that we understand who Jesus is and what He came for. If we understand what came before, we understand where You are taking us. So God, just protect her. Give her Your insights. Tell her where You want her to go and help her to make a continued difference in the world in Jesus's name. Amen.

[Richter]

Amen. Thank you so much. It's been lovely having time with you.

[Thibodeaux]

This has been an awesome conversation. Sandra. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

[Richter]

Thank you. Okay, take care, Wanda, thank you so much.

[Thibodeaux]

Thank you. Bye.

[: 46:09

[Thibodeaux]

Well, listeners, I have to tell you, when I got off this chat with Sandra, I just felt amazing. I just appreciated her expertise so much. And I hope that our conversation encourages you to read your Old Testament just as much as the New Testament. Be sure to check out the links in the show notes so you can find out more about Sandra and her work, and as you’re online, visit our sister site, faithfulontheclock.com, for tons more inspiring content. Next episode, I’m gonna be talking about breaking through all the negative thoughts that can cheat you out of success. We’ll identify some of the most common thought traps professionals have and get the Biblical counter-psychology for each one. Until that drops, everybody, be blessed.