[: 00:04

Thibodeaux

It’s a wonderful day to listen to a podcast, listeners, and you’re listening to Faithful on the Clock, the podcast for Christian professionals where every kid throws spaghetti to get your faith and work aligned. I’m your host, Wanda Thibodeaux, and like a lot of you ladies out there, I’ve really questioned my role in Christian leadership. I sat down and dove into Scripture with Elaine Lankford of She Steps Forward Coaching to explore culture and why women so often struggle to embrace their gifts and how men and women can serve together in a way that truly glorifies God. So, ladies, if you’re not sure where you belong or how to embrace the power God’s gifted to you, or guys, if you’re not sure how to support women or what shared service means for you, let’s get started.

[: 00:49

Thibodeaux

Welcome back to Faithful on the Clock, listeners. Joining me today is Chief Empowerment Officer of She Steps Forward Coaching, Elaine Lankford. Elaine focuses on helping to launch confident, successful, Christian female entrepreneurs with targeted, strategic plans so they can build sustainable businesses, ministries, and nonprofits. So, today we're going to talk a little bit about women in leadership and what all you ladies need out there to really thrive from a biblical perspective. So, Elaine, thanks so much for agreeing to be a guest on the show. Welcome.

Lankford

Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. It's a joy to be here.

Thibodeaux

Sure. So, I always — start out with my guests, I'd like for you to just give a little bit of background about yourself, just so my listeners know who you are.

Lankford

. I did have a real moment in: 2008

[: 03:23

Thibodeaux

Sure, so you're, you're — seem very clear. You know that this is the path, that God is calling to you, you know. But as you're talking about that pivot that you made from nursing, I know in our preinterview, we had talked a little bit about how you had gone to Africa and done some work there. So, can you tell me a little bit more about that, and maybe that moment that you kind of knew that He was calling you to cut to minister to His daughters, like you said?

Lankford

to: 1000

[: 07:24

Thibodeaux

Okay, so as as you're talking about going over to Africa, and you know, you — this was kind of like an unexpected call, you know, but you did get it, was there anything that kind of really surprised you when you went over there? Like, I mean, maybe with the way that you were treated by those women, or specific things that they needed, that you saw, like, you talked about that gap.

Lankford

Yeah, it's really funny, because in African culture, there is a slightly heavier atmosphere of oppression, if you will. There is a lot of patriarchy that still goes on in Africa. Male headship is still very strong over there, even down to the ranks of the churches in some sects of the church. And so, the other problem is just cultural and societal where women or — put in second class citizenship, if you will, if you are considered a widow. And a widow in Africa is not just someone who's lost her husband to death, but could be someone who's been divorced, and so, that lowering of status kind of makes it more difficult for them to rise. Plus, in the cultural side of Africa, there is still some polygamy that's practiced, or even if it's not recognized, it's done. And so, they're — they're dealing with a lot of stress and strain to come out from underneath all of this heaviness and to rise and to feel like they're worthy to rise up. In comparison to America, we still have some, you know, things that we're battling against here, whether it's in the culture in business, or whether even in some ranks of the church, to allow us to have that full gifting and use that full gifting, rather, of leadership. And so, though our levels, if you will, of restraint or not, as what I would think is severe as those in Africa, we're still all women.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Lankford

And we still all have dreams, and we still all have these callings from God and these giftings. And I think that's where it's such a lovely thing to have that other perspective of another culture, is to know that, yes, there are some things that are different, but in the — at the end of the day, there's so many things that we are alike. And so, they've treated me very well. They embrace what I'm bringing to the country. They're excited about it. And it's really become a sisterhood that we're now able to not only go there and see them, but we're gradually linking them over here to some people here in America. And so, we really want this to be something that becomes a global sisterhood, and we're starting to make some of those inroads happen so that women don't feel isolated no matter which culture they're living in, yeah.

[: 10:20

Well, I think sometimes, too, you know, when you're talking about culture, we can have this idea that, you know, women from one place to another don't really understand because there are differences. But like you said, I think there are some common threads that kind of go through it, whether that's patriarchy or whatever it might happen to be, so that there is the relatability from one area to the next that we can all join together. And it sounds like in your story, you know, it just took that one connection to get this to kind of start flowing. But I think the success that you have had with your ministry and the work that you've been doing kind of testifies to the fact that there are those commonalities that people can understand. You know what I mean?

Lankford

Absolutely. And the women that we encounter in Africa are as brilliant as the American women here. And that's what I think I was so pleased, is that they already had their idea of what they wanted to do for their business, their ministry, or a nonprofit work. And it's all coming out of the fact that women are natural nurturers all across the board. We see the gap, we want to fill it. And all of us do this kind of work. It's born out of our own lived experiences. So, just like they have single moms there, we — and we have single moms here, they understand that hurt, and they understand that pain, and they understand the things that those particular segments of women have to overcome. And so, it's natural for them to lean into that. And they have no limitation of thought of what they might can do. They just don't know how to get there.

Thibodeaux

Sure.

Lankford

And so, I think some women back here would be super surprised to see, actually, the progressiveness and the go-getter attitude that I see in the women there, and be inspired by it, because they are working off of little where we have more opportunity. And so, it's just been kind of fun to link the two cultures and one learn from the other, because where we are weak, they are strong, and where they are weak, we are strong. And so, it's just been a beautiful sisterhood to start building.

[: 12:30

Thibodeaux

Sure. So, having said that, you know, I have to ask you, then, what would you say, you know, if we think about this in terms of trade, what can we learn from each other? You know, you talked about how progressive that the African women are. Okay, well, then why aren't we? And how — how can we take that from them? And, you know, what — what could mean — we maybe offer to them that would empower them a little bit more?

Lankford

Absolutely. So, one of the things that I have learned just being in their culture and watching them is just the sheer tenacity. And it's really born out of some levels of desperation, because you don't sit on your hands, or you will not eat there.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Lankford

And so, there is some level of poverty that is pushing them, but there's also just, you know, wanting to feel dignified, that's pushing them. And so, the sheer level of tenacity that these women have to rise to to come up to what they're trying to do, really is a clarion call to Americans that we don't have an excuse. On the other side of the tracks, we have a lot of privilege here in that we have a lot of coaching, we have a lot of direction, we have a lot of models to look at. And women here in the states have been allowed, if you want to say it that way, or have progressed in such a way that we're getting into those ranks, and we're learning what we need to do to be the best at what we want to do, where the opportunity is not always there in Africa. If they don't have the role model to follow, then they're lost. And that is one of the things I've heard over and over from them, is they're so excited that we're there because now someone is teaching them something that they were not getting before. And so, that would probably be the two things between the two cultures that we can learn. And learning to do it the other cultures way is sometimes kind of fun. Like, I don't go over there to America-tize them. I want to learn their system and their way.

Thibodeaux

Sure.

Lankford

And if they were to come here, they would be enthralled to see how Americans do it, and what they could take from that to improve themselves. And so, I think there's a level of that, as well as not negating the cultures, but seeing how the cultures can blend and make each other stronger.

[: 14:53

Thibodeaux

Sure. Well, of course, you know, seeing that each culture certainly does have its strengths, you know, and we still have places that we can grow in — in both areas, but if we back off from that a little bit and say, okay, well, we know that there are cultural differences we — you know, to overcome and just look at the scriptural side of this, because the scripture is the scripture is the scripture right, regardless of where you are in the world. So, what would you say, based on your experience has been the biggest misunderstandings of Scripture that both areas — that you've been in — have kind of run up against? Does that make sense?

Lankford

Yeah, absolutely. So, absolutely there have been scriptures over the years that have been misinterpreted in the way that it holds women back in leadership in the church, and that kind of translates back into the home, as well. So, there are definitely, there's two passages in Scripture that we're all very familiar with, the one in 1 Timothy and the one in 2 Corinthians, they have — probably have the same misinterpretations at times over there. There's — there — like, we have levels of egalitarianism and complementarianism, they have that there, too. There's just a little extra layer of the patriarchy viewpoint that comes into it that's a little more complicated. But women are — women are gifted. Let me start there. Women are gifted. We're all gifted by the Spirit. We do have leadership giftings. How you interpret those Scriptures will determine what you feel like you can do or not. I believe that those scriptures were laid out by Paul specifically because Paul was a — God — God — he knew that God was a God of order. And Paul was trying to follow that, and he was establishing churches. And you want to talk about culture. This is such a great, you know, segway to that. Like, Paul is walking into a culture that does not know the Jewish culture. They do not know the Jewish God. He's walking into Gentile territory where multiple gods are being worshiped and multiple influences are in — in play. He's in the Roman Greco stage of culture there. And so, when he's trying to form churches, he's trying to teach what he knows. He's teaching the Jewish order of synagogue, and he's teaching it to an order of people who don't understand it and have been free will and have been able to be vocal. And the women there are just as vocal as the men in the Gentile cultures. And so, as he comes into this, he's really just trying to draw order. And so, we've kind of misinterpreted that as a forever and always. We've misinterpreted that it wasn't a structural, orderal way of what they were doing in service at the time. And so, that's limited women here in our churches that want to continue to believe in those passages as submissive passages. It's funny that those two passages, as I'm sure a lot of people have heard argue, like, they are the only two passages in the Bible that people take as one passage and make a rule to. And yet, we're taught biblically that Scripture is supposed to agree with scripture, or to agree with Scripture. And so, when we can't find other scripture to back up or to layer with these scriptures, then we have to question what the scripture really is talking about. And so, it really was an instruction for the day. It was an instruction for the time. And you know, part of the problem was, when they talk about in 1 Timothy, and it talks about women teaching, you're coming into a segment of the population where they're starting to hear bits and pieces of the gospel. And — and it's very specific in the Bible that there were false prophets also running around. There were false gospels that were being taught after Jesus passed away. And so, Paul's coming in, trying to — excuse me — wrangle all of this in. And these women have heard pieces and bits of things, and they think they know what they know. And they don't know what they don't know.

Thibodeaux

That sounds like a lot of people.

Lankford

Right. Right. And in that culture, and in the Jewish culture, women were taught different than the men, some at lower levels than the men were. And all Paul was really trying to say is, if you don't know what you don't know, you need to be quiet until you do know it.

Thibodeaux

Right. Right.

Lankford

And so, we all know that we, in — fast forward in modern time, we have seminary. Women are going to seminary. We're all studying the passages the same. We all can get into that depth of knowledge of the Greek and the Hebrew. Back then, they just weren't in that position yet. And he's just saying, “Look, don't espouse things that you don't know where you're attributing them from. I need you to listen first. You can't go around trying to boss everybody —

Thibodeaux

Right.

Lankford

— because you're used to being the boss in this culture. But you — this is very sensitive. This is very holy. We want you to learn it first.” And then in the passages where he's telling women to be quiet, like, this is a — just an order disruption. These are women who are wives, and their husband is sitting across the way, and they're trying to ask questions, and they're not used to being restrained. And, like, who can hear what's being taught if everybody's talking at once, right? And so, he's just trying to get order in — a structure of synagogue that he's establishing as he goes around in this different culture. And so, we've really taken that a little too far. God is obviously the — God is a God that the Bible tells us He is no respecter of person. And if He's no respecter of person, He's no respecter of gender. The Bible clearly tells us that the Spirit gives the gifts, and it does not say it's by gender. We're all gifted in the way that we should be gifted, and so, we need to respect that. And so, it's no different there. And the reason that it is perpetuated in both cultures that I've seen in America and Africa is that women need to study for themselves.

Thibodeaux

OK.

Lankford

We've always been led from a male-dominated perspective in the church, is just kind of how it came about. But there is nowhere in the Bible that is — it advocates that you don't study the word for yourself. We are all, as children of God, supposed to be reading and meditating and learning this Word. And if we -- we're doing that, then we would know when false things are spoken to us. And so, it's a matter of, you know, the way culture was set up is, it was male dominated in the beginning as societies formed. And so, we were told what we were told, and it was passed on. And males believed what they believed, because males told them that, and women believe what they believe because all males were telling them that. But I think we've come to a new age and a new time, and I think God has widened our ears and our hearts and our minds, and he really does want all of his children set free, which is why we have Joel, Joel 2, which tells us the Spirit will be, you know, poured out on his sons and his daughters in these times that we're living in. And so, yeah, it's very interesting to see how we have subjugated ourselves. I'll shout out to the women. If you're not reading and studying for yourself, then you don't know what you don't know. And so, I — I advocate you strongly, not in a way that is an affront to anyone else or to our brothers, but know — know the scriptures for yourself. Study them for yourself. See why God said and allowed some of the things to be written the way it was written, and understand the context, context, context in which it was written. It makes all the difference in the world.

Thibodeaux

Sure, I know, you know, as I had talked with you before, it — but you know, as you're kind of reiterating this now, is that it's this idea that it kind of feeds on itself. If the men are the only one that are interpreting for the women, of course, the women are going to continue to perpetuate the idea that they cannot preach. But if they learn for themselves, they might get a different interpretation based on their own study of Scripture. So, I do — I — I would do the same and just encourage them to read for themselves. Now, that doesn't mean that we're going to just trash everything that we've been taught, right? It certainly does not. But it just means that both men and women should be reading for themselves, rather than just saying, “Well, this is the standard I was taught.” You know, don't take anything at face value. You read from God's word, and you go from there. You know, there — you might have people who absolutely tell you the truth. But if all they've been taught is the same thing, the same thing, you're gonna get that perpetuated. So, I just want to say, you know, question things a little bit in a healthy way, you know, not to question God, but to know who God is better, right? There's a difference,

Lankford

Yeah, and — but, and I would even back up on that just a little bit and say God doesn't — God's not scared of our questions.

Thibodeaux

Oh, sure. Yes.

Lankford

You know what I mean? God, I know what you're saying. They're, like, from an authoritarian — yes, God, His word is His word, and we should follow it. But also, don't be afraid to ask God, “Is this correct? Am I — am I leaning into this wrong? Am I leaning into it right? What do You want me to know, God, about myself as your daughter?” And let Him reveal those answers to you. I personally, for — for those in your audience, like, I personally came out of Southern — Southern Baptist background. It was a wonderful childhood that I had up until my teenage years. I love my pastors back then. I just didn't know some of the things that I was being taught were a slightly misinterpreted. But did I have a horrible, you know, childhood because of it? No, I was given a huge missional heart out of the Southern Baptist Church. But as I grew, I transitioned over to non-denominationalism. I started studying the scriptures a little bit further for myself and matured, stopped drinking milk and started eating meat in the scriptures, and started really diving in and figuring this out for myself. And then, you know, later, God has given me such a global viewpoint, vantage point of the world, because of the work that I do and going into different cultures, that now I really lean more toward charismatic Pentecostal. It's — it's okay to broaden your mind. It is not an affront to come up one way and be raised one way — I — I'm — I'm so grateful for my Christian parents and — and the church that they took me to — but God also expects us to mature. And so, study is a part of that. Maybe you'll never be a woman who walks into university to figure it out, but you — there's so many resources out there to help you interpret better. One of the things, as we were talking in our preinterview, before I thought of it, and I kind of mentioned — I may have mentioned this to you, I really want to encourage women, the book that really got me was this one called Paul and Gender. And it's by Cynthia Long Westfall. And she is a beautiful theologian in her own right. She's from overseas in the European area, and she goes deep. She goes deep into this world that Paul stepped into and why he would have written some of the things the way he wrote it. She goes into the Hebrew and the Greek and she really breaks it down. And it just — when you get it — when you can — and here we are. We're talking about a women — a women — a woman theologian, like, we didn't have women theologians back when a lot of commentaries were wrote.

Thibodeaux

Right.

Lankford

They were all men. So, we've grown. We've stretched ourselves. God has given giftings to women to get deep into this and to also uncover scriptures, and we have to be open, more importantly, not to man, but more importantly to the Spirit. And if the Spirit is leading you to study deeper, there's a reason that that is happening. God is trying to get a message to you, and you need to lean into that. And that could be for all sorts of things in our Christian walk, but most especially when it comes to this conversation we're always having about the genders.

[: 27:23

Thibodeaux

Yeah. I know I had done a previous episode of the podcast, and the theme of that was basically that there is no wrong question to bring to God that He wants those questions. That is how you grow your faith. There's no question that can scare God off, like, at all. So, if that's what it takes, you know, and I think all of us, if I'm gonna be real honest, the time that we ask our questions are when we're at our lowest point and we don't know anything. Like, we are so confused. That's when you have to ask questions to get clarity to move forward. So, the fact that you're asking questions. I always tell people that is not a sign that you lack faith. That's a sign that you are seeking more of it. You know —

Lankford

Absolutely.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Lankford

Absolutely. And you know, what was really funny is — well not funny, but funny —

Thibodeaux

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lankford

— what was really funny was that, you know, part of me going through the trial that I went through, there was a period of time where there was — I had no work, and I was sitting for a period of time. And I really dug into the scriptures during that time. Like, I got — started getting deep. Like, for whatever reason, God worked in my heart to really go deep. And I went — I think that was the first time in my life — I'm in my mid 20s — it's the first time in my life that I ever read the Bible from cover to cover for myself with commentaries that I could get my hands on to understand what I was reading. And it was in that period of time, and just a few years after, as He’'s starting to mold this ministry in my heart that, all of a sudden, I discovered all the women that were in the Bible. I'd gone to church for years, and there had only been a mention of maybe Esther or Mary, the mother of Jesus, at Christmas, but not all these women that — there are — there are tons of women in the Bible. And I don't think women have done a deep enough dive on a whole to discover all the women that are in the Bible. Now, of course, we probably all know the name Jezebel. They love to throw that one out because she's an evil woman. But there's a lot of great women in the Bible. And so, like, when you really get to understand the story of Deborah and how that came about, and that Deborah was a judge in Israel in a very important position, and she wasn't put there by man. God was choosing who to put in that position, and Israel respected it. So, she was a respected judge, and she was a woman. And she was the one who was giving orders to the military in her position, or giving advice or advising. And that's so powerful that we, you know, for us to gloss over that, or to say, “Oh, she was in that position because there was no man at the time,” like, I've heard that thrown out. Like, really? The Bible specifically tells us, if you read it, that God chose her at that time to be a judge. I think about obviously Mary, the mother of Jesus, and how salvation, not without God's assistance —

Thibodeaux

Sure.

Lankford

— came through the womb of a woman. Like, He — He — what an important assignment that was for her at such a tender age. And on top of that, he gives her Elizabeth, her older cousin. And Elizabeth is here, mentoring, if you will, and coaching the woman who's gonna birth the Savior, like, this powerful story of these two women in the Bible, and how that woman-to-woman empowerment started even back then. I think about Lydia — Lydia, who we all know is the woman with the clothing that was made out of purple. But if you read Lydia's story, she was this powerful, progressive entrepreneur in the space that Paul found her and converted her. And once he converted her, not only was she this great merchant that everybody knew and — and was of wealth, because selling, you know, clothing and purple was royalty coloring, and so, there was a high value in that day for that color. She started bringing people into her home, and really developed the first home church, if you will, in that area. And she was the leader of it because it was her home, and she cared for people. And so — and then the one that really blows me away, that we really don't even think about is in Luke, when we talk about the women who are traveling with Jesus. And we don't dive deep enough in that to know that in Luke 8, it says that the women were traveling and they gave out of their own wealth. Well, where did that wealth come from if it was their own. They were leaders, they were entrepreneurs, they were progressive, they were — they were, you know, they had their hand in society. That's the only way they could have come to that status. And so, I just want to encourage women. I know you've heard about Joshua. I know you've heard about David and Moses and all of them. But please make sure you go back and you find all the women that God has laid delicately and intimately in the Bible to call us out and let us know that we are as important to Him as the men, and that we are all His children, and we should behave in such a way.

[: 32:52

Thibodeaux

Yeah, absolutely. And I — you know, as — as you're absolutely encouraging the women, as we should be, I do want to say to the men, you know, we are not trying to say that you do not have position or authority —

Lankford

Absolutely.

Thibodeaux

— or that, you know, we're not stealing that. It's more of that women have that for themselves, and that it is very much that, as you had said earlier in the show that we all have gifts, and if we are not all using our gifts to the best of our ability, that's kind of an affront to God. Like, we should be diving full into whatever God gives us. And I'm gonna tell — and maybe some of you won't like what I'm gonna say here — but some of the men who are in leadership, quite frankly, that's not your gift, and you shouldn't be there. And I think we had talked about this a little bit on the preinterview as well. And so, but culturally, you know, if we had talked about culture, as well, we are taught that the men are the leaders, and so, I think men kind of get pressured to step into those roles more than the women do, and you feel like that's kind of what I'm supposed to do. Quote, supposed to do. Right? But if that's not your gift, I'm just — want to, you know, give men an out a little bit here. It is okay to follow in some places. If you have gifts to support other people, then support them. That is where God wants you. You do not have to lead. Now, if he calls you to lead, absolutely do it. But, and that goes for the women too, you know, like, if you are a leader, be a leader. If you're not, that's okay. Just listen to what God gives you, use what the gifts that He has granted to you, and you will be on the right path. You know, don't try and — and fit what society tells you you should be. Just listen to what God has already intended you to be.

Lankford

It really is as simple as we really don't realize how culturally ingrained we are, right? So, for instance, when we have children, we automatically put blue clothes on boys and pink clothes on girls, right? That's a culturally driven color theme that we go with. I'm not saying it's wrong or right. I'm just saying it is culturally driven. And I just would say to the men who are listening like, hey, if you are a big, strong, leading me biblically, I'm going to follow you all the way. I don't have a problem with my brothers in the body who are strong Christian men —

Thibodeaux

Yes.

Lankford

— strong leaders, leading from love, leaving — leading from sacrifice. There's no woman on this Earth that wouldn't follow a man like that. But you — if you're leading because you are just assuming the position, if you — if you don't have the gifting, if you are coming at it because you may have not have dwelled — delved as closely in the scriptures as you should have, and you're taking the word of another person and how it's interpreted, then I challenge you to go back, because we know there are strong men in this world that are not put off by women leadership. That's why there's two camps right now in the Christian body, right? They're not put off by women who are leaders. They understand the giftings of God. I — I adore my husband. He is my leader, but he leads from behind right now. He's not someone who's ministry — ministry inclined. He's not missional inclined, but he's a Christian. He's — he's strong in that, and he's okay with me leading what I'm leading. And so, I just say to the fellows, like, we love you. That's not —

Thibodeaux

Yeah. Sure.

Lankford

— the problem at all. I do believe that there is a — one clear mandate in the Bible for men in leadership, and that is, if you are married, you are supposed to be the leader of your home. But in that leadership, again, it's not a wife that, quote, unquote, is in the position of submission, of oppression. It is all about love. If you are leading her, you are loving her like Christ loved the body. That's a — that's a leadership out of love. And if she's submitting to you, she's submitting like the bride to Christ. That's a position of love. And so, we have to get out of these cultural, macho-driven thoughts that we've been given and really get biblical and really get practical about where both — both genders play a role. So, when Adam and Eve were created, this is another piece that we kind of, we kind of think of Eve when we hear this story on a Sunday morning that she's this dote-iful little female running around in the garden, and Adam’s this big, strong man, and — but the thing is that, when she was created, it says that God gave — it tells us further in Scripture, that God gave her as an ezra, as a helper, as a helpmate, and that doesn't mean submissively. If you look in the Hebrew at ezra, ezra has a very strong connotation. This is not a helper that is weak. This is a strong helper. This is someone who can come to the defense of the person that they're helping. Like, this is like, we've been taught it in a different way. And so, this is an equality that God gave to Eve as she as he linked her with Adam, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. This was not supposed to be a weakness to Adam, but another strength that — his strength. And so, we have to look at that relationship differently, and we have to look at the words. Ezra is only used a couple more times, or — when it is, sorry, used in the Bible beyond Eve, it's usually talking about God. None of us believe God is — is weak. He's our strong tower, right? And so, we have to look at that, and we have to start really coming to a more biblical perspective when it comes to the roles. But I absolutely believe there's a mandate for the — the man to lead in the home. And if you're leading right, you're leading out of love, and again, there is no woman on this Earth that doesn't want to follow a man who is leading in that regard.

Thibodeaux

Yeah. Well, one thing I want to mention, too is, like, again, like, culturally, I think men — men do take on a lot. They do.

Lankford

They do.

Thibodeaux

And — but I — I can say, from my own life, the times that I have taken on too much that I should not have, right, when that happens, we want to say, I need — I need a helper, right? But then I think culture does kick in, fear kicks in and says, well, if I ask for help, what will people think of me? And so, to the guys out there, I will just say, what will I think of you? You're awesome, because you know better. You know that you can't do it all alone. And I think, as you're saying in Genesis, like the — the design was to have us lean on each other —

Lankford

Exactly. That’s a great way to put it.

Thibodeaux

— because we — we could under — we could understand each other. We — I mean, like, Adam and Eve, they are not, like, in separate places in the garden. Like, they are together. They understand what the garden's about. They — they've, you know, had conversations with God, so they understand the environment that everybody's in. And if you look at that, and then you connect it to Galatians, I think we're actually seeing the same message that we support each other. We bear one another's burdens. We're all helpers to each other. I had just released a devotional, and one of the things that I had talked about in that devotional was that — I don't know if any of you out there have seen the film Patch Adams, but at the end of that film, he basically gets in trouble because he was supposedly, you know, practicing medicine without a license, and as part of his defense to the board, he says, well, everybody who comes to my ranch is a patient, but we're all also doctors. And I think that's kind of the — the idea of helper that we need to see is that to be spiritually healthy, physically healthy, we cannot do it on our own. We just can't. And God knew it, and that's why He said, “It's not good for you to be by yourself.”

Lankford

That’s right.

Thibodeaux

You know, so, I mean, that — that's kind of my in a nutshell version of my theology on that.

[: 41:05

Lankford

Well, and the other thing we have to think about is what happened in the fall. You know, the fall happened and — and some people may not agree with me, and I'm okay with that. But I believe that is when patriarchy entered the world. Because it's very clear in Scripture that when the fall happened, that there were these shifts that happened in Adam and Eve or — and were gonna happened in men and women over time, where men was going to wanna, you know, be oppressive to the woman, and the woman was going to rule over her husband, like, all of a sudden, we're in each other's business, right, where we're supposed to be walking alongside each other. And the fall happens, and then all of a sudden, our perspectives on each other shift. Well, why does that happen? Because the Devil is always looking for a way to divide. If you — if you can divide the house, the house will fall. And so he — he got his foot in the door with what happened. And we can talk about the whole apple, and — we won't do it today, but we could talk about the whole apple thing, and who was where and what — and what happened with that. But we know where God clearly placed responsibility. And I think there are reasons for that. There's no reason to beat up the man. There's certainly no reasons to beat up the woman. The fall happened, but we have to look at the fall and go this. This is where the relationship got off. What were the results of the fall? The results were all of a sudden, now we're pushing against each other. And it's just grown and blossomed over time, and that spirit is still in the world. And it's still trying to divide the children of God on the basis of gender. It's got to divide us somehow. It's dividing us into denominations. It's dividing us by gender. It's dividing us by race. Like, there's this division that's going on and — and has been in the church, and we have to look back and say,

Where did that come from?” Because that was not God's pattern, and will never be His pattern. His church is all of us together, linking arms, no matter the race, no matter the gender, no matter the background, no matter the country. And we have to really do a deep dive on that and check ourself at the door and say, “Are we becoming a part of the division, or are we trying to heal the division so that we can move the kingdom forward?” And so, that's where I want to encourage the women that you are there and your leadership gifting, and if it's there, and you know you're gifted as a leader, you need to move in that because you are trying to heal a divide, and you are trying to move Kingdom work forward, and you should not feel guilty in that whatsoever.

[: 43:45

Thibodeaux

So, if we take that idea of, you know, neither one of us should feel guilty, but what you had said, kind of like, healing this division, then what can men do to support the women, but conversely, what can the women do to say, OK well, if we have all these structures that need changing, what can the men do to kind of support the women, but also then — then — themselves in the process, you know, how can we heal that? What do we need for that?

Lankford

I really think there has to be more — there has to be more dialog. There has to be more self-reflection. There has to be more self study of the Scriptures. And if you're a man and you feel like, very strongly that you are holding to those ideals of where women's leadership, where the line of women's leadership is in the church, then I ask you to take that to God and prayerfully discuss it. I ask you to, like, really dive deeper into more of the scriptures. If — if you were receiving that information from another and not studying it on your own. For women, I think you need to also study the scriptures and understand what it means to really be supportive of men, be supportive of your husband, be supportive of your brothers. Understand there's a spirit that's kind of gets in us and flares up and we are wanting to push against, sometimes, out of the hurt and the division that — that has come into the world. And so both of us have to want, first and foremost, check our feelings at the door, because emotions wreck us. It is the fuel for division, is when we let our emotions get in the way.

Thibodeaux

Yes, it is.

Lankford

Second, study it out and be biblical about it. Study it out and be biblical about it. Third, understand that you're not the authority, either side. If you're not going to God and asking Him, what was His original intent for that verse, make sure you're checking yourself at the door. You becoming the authority on His Word? Or are you letting God be the authority on His Word? There's a sense of pride on both sides that needs to drop and ask the original source what was meant in that. And if you are in a situation where there just absolutely can be no sense of agreement, then it's time to do — here's another cultural thing, the gentleman's handshake —

Thibodeaux

Yes.

Lankford

— and move in different directions and continue to do what you can do for the Kingdom, but hopefully that we — hopefully we don't — we don't settle on that. Again, we're divided in so many ways in the church in this day and age, it is so necessary that the church get itself together. We are going to be fighting battles we have never fought in the spiritual realm going forward, and we need to come together like no other time in the church's history. And so, I just — I think those would be my two or three biggest points to any Christian on any side of it. What I've done in my life is, when I cannot find that consensus with a brother, I've just blessed it and let it go. And here's what I know. Whether I'm the man or the — whether I was a man or whether I was a woman — I was obviously born a woman — let the fruit of my work speak for me. Sometimes, we just have to let the fruit of our work be our testimony, and we have to let bygones be gone, and we just have to — to move forward, if that's what it takes. But that would be my little spiel on that. I really am so desperate to see the church rise and become stronger. I would love to see us healing those divisions on all levels, because we're needed, and both of us are gonna be necessary. Both of us has always been necessary, but like no other time, both of us are necessary for the days to come.

Thibodeaux

Yeah. Well, I love what you're saying, just about, like, just making sure that God is the head. You know, that we are going to Him and asking those questions, figuring it out. And that thing about that too, is like, what's hard, I think, is that sometimes, we don't get an answer right away. And so, then we — then sometimes, we mistakenly think that God's not answering at all, or that He's not going to answer. And so, then we default to our own conclusion rather than wait for His answer. And so, I would just encourage people, just be patient, and just realize, you know, this — sometimes, the answers and the epiphanies, the awakening to unite people, can come in very small doses over a long period of time. That's certainly been true in my life, where I have had to look — and things have evolved in my view of things. And then, as I put all these pieces together, then sometimes, I have these bigger epiphanies looking back at all the little pieces. But it is. It has very rarely come in one big light bulb moment where I'm like, oh, that's what it means.

Lankford

That’s right.

Thibodeaux

Very rarely does that happen for me. So, for what that’s worth.

Lankford

I agree. No, I love that. I agree. We are all growing. We are all maturing or attempting to mature.

Thibodeaux

Yes.

Lankford

And He definitely, yeah. We're gonna learn it over time. We just have to be curious enough to keep asking those questions and to keep diving in. That's — He loves His children to come ask questions. I promise you.

Thibodeaux

Oh, yeah.

Lankford

He loves questions. He'd rather you ask the question than assume.

Thibodeaux

Oh, yeah. And I think that there is definitely a scriptural basis. You know, we do have that permission where, if you have given it your all and they are still not hearing you, they're still not listening, we have that permission to shake the dust off of our feet and go to where we will be heard. You know, we do have that, but that doesn't mean, you know, we say it once and then give up. You know, sometimes, we have to persist in that. So, it's finding that happy medium and listening to God for when God says, “OK. You know, it's time. Pack your bags.”

Lankford

Yeah.

Thibodeaux

You know, because sometimes we don't know. We have that feeling of uncertainty: “Should I go somewhere else, God? I don't know.” And then we have to listen to Him, because we don't know. We don't know the answer. So…

Lankford

Yeah. My husband and I kind of experienced that in the second church that I was ever in. We were there for 15 years, and they were — they were labeled nondenominational. And as my ministry started to bud and blossom, and I started to really try to walk in it, we actually were rejected. And it was a very odd situation, because we couldn't understand it. And then they came out, and all of this complementarianism was put on the table. No one had ever talked about it. In the 14, 15 years we were in the church

Thibodeaux.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lankford

And so, you know, we — I went to the pastor, and I had multiple conversations with the pastor, and I brought and asked him if he'd please read certain materials, and he would, you know, also, in fairness to him, was very open, and we had great dialog. But, you know, at one point it became very obvious that things were not going to change at that moment. And then, this was right around when COVID hit, was kind of the timing of it. Like, you know, I'd left, I'd gone to Africa, I had come back. Like, I had just, you know, launched a conference, you know, a year before that. And so, all these great things are happening, but I'm getting this rejection from the church that I'm in, and I'm thinking, wow, I thought we're supposed to grow up and go out and do big things. And then, when all this kind of stirred up, so, what really happened is, COVID hit, and I was — we were sitting home, and my husband and I had been kind of fighting the sensation of, do we stay? Do we go? What do we do? And I clearly heard God, I don't even remember the specific morning, but I heard him say, it's — it's time to move on.

Thibodeaux

OK.

Lankford

You're not going back. And I said that to my husband, and he said, “You know, for six months I've been waiting for you to say something.”

Thibodeaux

OK.

Lankford

“I was gonna stand with you as long as you wanted to stand, but I've been waiting for six months for you to say something. And I totally agree, and I feel like it's our time to move on.” And so we knew. We knew. We were in agreement. We felt like we'd heard from the Lord, and we — we moved on. And so, there's —there do — there are those times when you have to lean into that and to know. And again, look at the fruit of my work. I don't think we made the wrong decision, because had we stayed, we would have been hampered. We would have been pulled down. We would have felt some kind of way about it. There would have been bitterness that creeped in. And that's —

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Lankford

— not what God wants, either.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Lankford

And so, sometimes you just gotta agree to disagree. We're gonna go through that, unfortunately, I think. But if you can be a change agent, and — and you can try to help heal the divide, do that. I applaud you for that.

[: 52:44

Thibodeaux

Yeah. I think you know, God is always about uniting us.

Lankford

Oh, absolutely.

Thibodeaux

You know, for sure. You know, but — but as we are talking about, you know, kicking dust off and moving on, if, as we're wrapping up here, if you had to tell women and men, you know, what is — what is the biggest takeaway that you want them to take away from this show?

Lankford

I think I want, one, I want women to know that you are seen and that you are heard and that you are valuable to the One that means the most, the One who created you. And if you know where your giftings are, if there's something inside you just — you just know that you know that you know that you should be doing, then I want you to lean in and have the courage to step forward and to do that thing, no matter who — and believe me, in the church world, we have just as many women that come against us as men — no matter who tries to dampen your spirit, if you know that you know that you have that clarion call from God to step out and to do something for Him, you do it. And then for the men, again, I just want you to know we do love you. We would love to be unified with you. We — we know that there are giftings that you have been given. We're gonna respect that. Please respect ours. And if we can have conversation around that, let's do it. Let's not just give in to the spirit of division that's floating in the church. And so, I pray all God's children in this time rise up. I pray that we suit ourselves with the armor of God. I pray that we lean into our giftings and that we do big things for the Kingdom.

[: 54:28

Thibodeaux

Well, hopefully to keep people having these conversations with you, if people wanna learn more about you and your work, where can they go to find out more?

Thibodeaux

Absolutely. So, they can go to shestepsforwardcoaching.com or shestepsforwardinternational.org. She Steps Forward Coaching is my one-to-one coaching business, but She Steps Forward International is my nonprofit, and that's where you can get information on what we do here in the States and Africa.

Thibodeaux

OK. Perfect. So, I will make sure that there are links in the show notes, as I always do, so that that is very easy for people to connect with you. But as we close, would you mind if I say a prayer for you?

Lankford

Sure. Please. Thank you.

[: 55:14

Thibodeaux

So Dear God, I ask that you bless Elaine as she continues her work to bring women forward, whatever that path might be forward. Help her understand what the women are seeking and what they need from each individual on her team, from her, so that we can get that unity, not only among the women, but among the women and the men. So, bless her ministry, and just keep keep her in your sights. In Jesus name, I pray. Amen.

Lankford

Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

Thibodeaux

Thank you for your time, Elaine. This has been a wonderful conversation. I appreciate it.

Lankford

Oh, thank you. It's been great.

Thibodeaux

Thank you.

[: 55:57

All right, listeners. I hope this episode has given you a lot to think about in terms of how all of us as children of God can contribute to the church, because all of us have a place, and it’s us all working together in love that makes the church truly strong and effective. Next episode, I welcome author and coach Peter Kolat, who’s gonna show us how to fit our work into the life we want, rather than life into our work. Go get your copy of Grace in the Grind on Amazon while you wait for that, and if you haven’t checked out our revamped library on faithfulontheclock.com, go do that, too — we’ve made it way easier to navigate, and there are hundreds of posts for you to learn and get encouragement from. I’ll see you in two weeks. Be blessed.