Why Small Things Matter with Charlie Peacock and Andi Ashworth

[: 00:04

Hi, again, listeners. I’m your host, Wanda Thibodeaux, and you’re listening to Episode 98 of Faithful on the Clock, the show where I bake every cookie to get your faith and work aligned. Today’s show is definitely one you’re gonna wanna bookmark or save, because I’m talking with 4x Grammy winner Charlie Peacock and phenomenal author Andi Ashworth. This husband-and-wife team has been serving the Lord through music, writing, and compassion for other people for nearly five decades. They’re still going strong, and having done this interview, I can tell you with sincerity that, you know, they’ve achieved a ton, but they’re just a wonderfully down-to-Earth couple. I had the honor of talking with them about their new book, Why Everything That Doesn’t Matter, Matters So Much: The Way of Love in a World of Hurt. They share an amazing amount of personal and professional insight around their faith that I know is going to be uplifting for you, so, with a quick tip that I’ll give you links to their material in the show notes, here’s the full interview, right now.

[: 01:05

(Wanda)

So Charlie, and Andi, thank you so much for being on the show with me today. You are, to me, a wonderful creative power couple. So, I really appreciate you being on the show. I think you guys will have a lot to offer my listeners about, you know, just how you have a career, how you follow Jesus through that. So, thank you for being on the show. I really appreciate it.

[: 01:27

(Andi)

Thank you, Wanda. We appreciate being here.

[: 01:30

(Wanda)

Thanks. So, I just wanted to start out and just give people a little glimpse into your career. Now, anybody can go on Google and Google you. And you have pretty much — if there's anything in the creative space, you guys have pretty much touched it in the music and writing sphere. That's kind of the way it comes across. You guys have had, you know, 40, 50 years in your industries. But can you give me your career in a nutshell version, the non-Google version for my listeners?

[: 02:00

(Charlie)

I mean, I grew up in the late: 1950

[: 06:03

(Wanda)

That — I mean, everything you're saying is so relatable for me, because I, you know, I grew up on a little farm, too, so I can relate to that. And I remember, too, you know, just, you know, I had really nothing else to do, because it was a very rural community. So, I remember going out in my driveway and smashing rocks, just to see what was in them. But just that, you know, as you're saying, you know, like your, that creative idea and drive just to see what would happen, and just being willing to try things. And I can remember being in my room, you know, with my instruments, and I had, like, a little old tape deck. And I would, like, record parts and, like, see how that sounded mess around with that. But just being willing to try stuff. And, you know, and part of the reason why I wanted to have you both on the show is, I relate so much to both of you on both sides, being the writer, as you're saying, and the musician, because those are kind of my, my areas, too. So, there's a lot that I feel that you have experienced that, you know, is relatable to the broader business genre, but just that creativity side that you're bringing into it, you know, that speaks to a lot of, to my background, as well. But Andy, what about you? Tell me a little bit about your career, because you've been in the writing side, too, for a lot of things.

[: 07:22

(Andi)

I have. I have. And yeah, so, I love the word vocation as well, because I just think it really gets at the complex nature of life and our, in our adult work, and just all of the things that we might steward. So, rather than being, you know, saying, I do this, or I do that, I like the sweep of vocation because it tells a bigger story. So, I would use that word and say that I, when I was a little girl, I had a proclivity to — I actually really cared about loneliness in people. So, I used to go and visit in nursing homes, even from the time I was just a little, like a 10-year-old kid. And so, as I grew up, I thought I was going to be a nurse. I thought that was going to be my path. I also had writing and reading. I was, just loved reading. I loved writing. And that was just, you know, however, it came out, whether it was in a diary or was, you know, pages in a notebook. And so, I kind of grew into those things. But they ended up looking different than I had any idea when I was a little kid. And so, some of my caregiving came through motherhood, and homemaking. And then through a nonprofit that we began in our home in Nashville, which was called the Art House. And we began a nonprofit called Art House America, which just, its basic thing is creativity for the common good. And then I was editor-in-chief of the literary blog, and I wrote a book, and I wrote a lot for, you know, magazines and online places and — but in that place, the Art House in Nashville, which was an old country church that we bought in order to have this ministry (that ended up being more of a life than, than anything else to me), we hosted people, and we gathered people, and we, you know, I cooked for people and changed their beds before they came and cleaned up after them and sat with them for hours and conversation, and kind of, all that, as I went along in my life. And I realized that all of those things together, that was the life that God was giving me. And, and it was, you know, it was small parts. It was big things. It was things that you could name easily things that were more subtle and nuanced that were hard to name. But as I grew into my vocation, I could understand it and make room for all these different parts and see their importance, because I could see that they were part of this whole given life, part of my whole life work, you know, including when grandchildren came and it was time to care for them, and just all of these different parts. So, yeah. So, you know, and then from writing came speaking and, you know, one thing leads to another, and then you have different seasons. And so, you know, one week we might be hosting an artist that Chuck is working with in the studio, and I'm cooking and feeding us and then we have grandkids around. And then I would turn from that and go to my office and work on some writing that's due. And then maybe the next week, I'm going somewhere to speak. And, you know, in the middle of all this, weeding the garden, and making for beauty, and so, so it's the big mix of all of that. Yeah.

[: 11:23

(Wanda)

Yeah. I mean, when I was, you know, getting ready for the interview, and we had talked before, we had talked a little bit about that, and the idea of vocation. But all of the writing that you have done and all of this creativity, right now, you have a new book coming out, I understand, yes? And that is called, Why Everything That Doesn't Matter, Matters So Much: The Way of Love in a World of Hurt. So, I just want to introduce that a little bit for our listeners. And so, tell me about that. And tell me about how this book came about? And why this book, why? And why are you doing it now.

[: 12:03

(Andi)

This book came about because we had been writing along the years of our life. And we got to a point — so, we had a lot of writing that was already done, a lot of things we had already thought about as we were going along, each of us in our life together and in our life separately. And so, a couple of years ago, we thought about maybe putting some of that writing out, and just letting it be what it was. But then, that's not what ended up happening. We clicked with a publisher and a beautiful editor. We ended up with a book that, where we kind of started from things that we'd written about before, whether it was being an artist in the world, or a letter to musicians and music lovers, or it was a letter on cooking or, you know, a piece on cooking, or whatever it was, and we took all those and we made a book that speaks to many of the aspects of life that we've lived, but that also have commonality with, you know, really anybody who is thinking about the world and their life and the importance of all the different pieces of it. Yeah.

[: 13:30

(Charlie)

So, yeah, particularly because, you know, both our writing styles are very epistemological. You know, we write to know what we know. And then what we really know is what is very near to us and dear to us. And so, our family is very integrated into our writing. So, even though we could be writing about business, or we could be writing about gardening, or art making, but somehow, there's going to be, family’s going to be integrated into that, place is going to be integrated into, and I — you know, I realized about 20 years ago that the thing that Andi and I were doing with Art House, with our life, was something that businesses and corporations were really picking up on. And that was that if they could create executives and just — workers within their companies that began to think more integrated in terms of their work and more empathetic in terms of what their customer or their co-worker, what they were going through and their part of putting the widget together. And then the imagination and creativity piece, of course, you know, corporations bend over backwards to try to start to bring that into the business world to get people to see that, yes, of course. Yes, we want you to follow the policy manual. But we need some amount of you, right, to be dreaming, right? And listening, and risking, and throwing out a bunch of ideas, you know, and risking that some people are gonna think, “Oh, that's a dumb idea.” And I think, so, for us, the way that we write in the way that we've written this book is that it is a peek into our process as not only just creative people, but people who are citizens, people who are parents and grandparents, and people who are attending a place. And even in one case, you know, making the decision that you know what, we need to leave this place. And that's really difficult, you know, so we write about that. For me, you know, writing about a chronic illness that I have. And so, it's a bit, I think that I want to say about the book is that, as Andi said, there's something for everyone there. I really think there is, because it does have singular topics. But they're all seamlessly integrated with sub-topics, which I think so many people can relate to. And I don't know, did you find that when you were working through the material? Did you feel that way? Or…

[: 16:50

(Wanda)

Very much so. So, I actually had just, you know, had the privilege of finishing that a couple of days ago. And what struck me, and I don't know how intentional this was, you know, as you went, but kind of, the way that you had structured this book, and, you know, again, just for the listeners to understand what this book is, you kind of structured it like the Beatitudes in a way, where you are addressing certain people. But there's an overall arcing lesson, you know, that hospitality, Andi, that you talk about shines through, and this idea that, you know, people matter, and the little things around people matter. That's through everything. And there — I think I had mentioned last time that the book came across very warm to me, because you both are humble enough through the entire thing to say, “We were here. But we learned something. You know, as we grew together, it wasn't always easy. But we learned something. And here, I'm going to hand it to you on a platter.” You know, that's how it comes across to me through every single piece that you have in that book. So, even though, like you said, some of it is directed to certain individuals. There are gems through everything. Like, I found myself wanting to read other sections that I wasn't like, not my life part yet. But I would read it anyway. Because I'm like, what are they going to say? Like, what what I get from this?

[: 18:15

(Andi)

Boy, that's wonderful. Thank you for that.

[: 18:18

(Wanda)

Yeah. So I just wanted to share that with you, because it was very heartwarming to read and finish that book. And I got done with it, I'm just like, ha. Like, it was a good feeling when I got done.

[: 18:30

(Andi)

That's so encouraging, Wanda. Thank you for that.

[: 18:34

(Wanda)

I hope so. As a writer, I can understand how it feels. You need the feedback, sometimes. It doesn't matter if you're, you've already got the publishing thing going, you know, you still need the reassurance, I think, you know.

[: 18:49

(Charlie)

Yeah, thank you.

[: 18:50

(Wanda)

Yeah. Of course. So, one of the things, Charlie, that you talk about in this book, that kind of struck me, too, is you, you emphasize this idea of being a Christian, and a musician. And so, can you talk a little bit about that and the labeling of things?

[: 19:09

(Charlie)

Yeah. The first thing that I would say is, I don't have any problem with the idea of a Christian musician. What I have problem with is that it doesn't get defined. And so, if you were to go pretty much to any evangelical church in America and ask, just pick any person and say, you know, talk to me about Christian music, or Christian musicians, they would immediately start talking about a genre of music. And so, that's where I have a problem. And I've written about that quite a bit. But what I don't have a problem with is saying that I'm a Christian, and that I'm a musician. Because I really want to honor God by holding the integrity up of both of those words and the fullness of their meaning, because I think that that's what honors God most. It's not — I don't think it's honoring to God for me to call myself a Christian musician, if I'm not really fully Christian and fully a musician. And so, I'm trying to really lean into both of those and be faithful to both of them, and have them be seamlessly integrated. And I would love it for whatever music industry that Christians get involved in and all of that, I mean, I loved, I would love it if they would catch up with that idea. Right? You know, rather than the idea that, let's figure out, here we have this thing, that — this good thing,let's call it good, good music and we want to sell it to Christians. And the only way we can sell it to Christians is if we call it Christian music. And then, because we've done that, we've used all the world's marketing and promotion techniques to do that, naturally, the person who's listened to it now thinks there's Christian music, and then secular music. And, or there's Christian music, and there's jazz, or there's Christian music and hip hop, right? Instead of thinking, well, what if we were to just go back a step and say — first of all, any music, let’s just, don't label it yet. Let's just decide, is it good? And you might say, “Well, yeah, I really liked the music part, but I don't like the message of the lyric.” And so, for me, I probably would call that good. It was kind of half good. Right? You know, and you could actually say that, you know, you could say that about it, a, you know, EDM dance song that you didn't like, or you could say that about a, you know, modern worship song. But the point is that, I think that you ask first, what is good about it, is there anything good about it. I think that's really the Christian viewpoint. And can you be supportive of Christian music? Absolutely. You know, I, again, I'm not, I'm not down on that at all. Just for me, personally, I want to be known as a Christian. And I want to be known as a musician who has skill and ability filled with the Spirit of God to create lots of different kinds of music for different purposes and missions and callings. And it just so happens that God has gifted me to make all sorts of American music, basically, and neoclassical music. So, because I'm in that tradition, I wouldn't want to be a part of any genre that limited my ability to be faithful.

[: 23:20

(Wanda)

That makes perfect sense to me. And I think, if I can summarize that a little to broaden it out to other industries, I think what you're really saying is that there are almost limitless possibilities, I think you had said an ocean of possibilities in the book. And there's an ocean of possibilities for how you can apply what God has given you. And there's really no reason why you should limit yourself based on what other people are telling you to fit into a little box. Is that accurate?

[: 23:47

(Charlie)

Yeah, absolutely. And it's really, and it really begins with, it really, truly is about faithfulness to God. That's why I'm so adamant about it. I mean, it's really, if the small box is taking away my faithfulness to God, then I do have to oppose it.

[: 24:06

(Wanda)

Yeah. That's an excellent point, because I think so many people get caught up in that small box, because they feel like that's safe. Like, that's what's going to give them —

(Charlie)

Or, they've been convinced that it's faithful, that it is a symbol, like, the singular symbol of faithfulness. And so what I've argued for for, you know, almost 30 years now, is that, no, it is one symbol of faithfulness. It is not a singular symbol of faithfulness. And in, particularly, as Americans, I mean, it — you could say, well, it's one among many American symbols of musical faithfulness. Right? And then you have this whole world out there of other Christians all around the world who have different ways of demonstrating that faithfulness that are not American at all.

[: 25:02

(Wanda)

Right. Well, I think, you know, when you had mentioned, you know, kind of being a cog in the wheel a couple of minutes ago, I think that helps to address it, because if you can see that ocean of possibility and all the ways that you can apply your gifts, you're not necessarily maybe going to feel as stuck. You know, maybe you can't craft your job, you know, completely, but you can look for those little ways where the job or where the skill applies, and say, “How can I do that to the fullest?” Or maybe even look for other opportunities that you hadn't thought of. And so, it gets you thinking differently about what you could even do for your career. I think that's an excellent opportunity in that, you know, to see multiple paths for what you can do. So, you know, when we are talking about all of this, you know, living for God, what kind of — when you think of Jesus and you think of work, what kind of legacy do you want people to be working for? Or what do you think is a good mindset for how to approach work through a Christian lens?

[: 26:17

(Charlie)

You wanna take that?

[: 26:20

(Andi)

I can try. I think that the lens that is so important to us, has been so important to help us is this phrase: “The Lordship of Christ over all of life.” Meaning, simply put, but with huge meaning that goes across all life, all of life matters to God. So, all of life matters to us. And so we have these lives that are given to us. We have people. We have places. We have particular gifts or concerns or cares, ways we make our living. All of these things together. And it's so important, has been so important to us to understand that there is no corner of life where God is not present, that doesn't matter, that He's not sovereign, that all these places and all these ways that — what I really love to call it, and I understand it for myself as a given life, because then I can look both now and I can look back and I can see, oh, that was given to me. That was a path that I was given and that I'm given now. I follow it in breadcrumbs. I don't see the whole thing. But it is the dailiness. It is following Jesus into the callings that He gives us. And you know, so, for instance, I have somebody that I'm very close to who owns an insurance company. And she has such a difficult time connecting the fact that the work she does matters to God. And so we have these conversations, but I — you know, for me, as I have been taught, as I have understood, and as I now see through the lens, through the Jesus lens into the world, that if our work doesn't matter to God, whether it's our paid work or unpaid work, but all these ways that we spend our lives, that we spend our years, if that doesn't matter to God, then really what does? That just leaves this big blank. And it leaves us without meaning. It leaves us with the very wrong theology of who God is and the meaning that we're given in our lives as we follow Him and all these different ways, whatever the particularities of our lives. But there's this way of knowing that work has an intrinsic value of its own. It's carried out to serve a genuine need. And that's just really big. That's a huge idea. And so there's a, you know, it's neighbor love. It’s love of God and love of neighbor, and what does that look like in any particular place as we follow along day to day.

[: 29:45

(Wanda)

So, I'm actually really glad that you brought that up about, like, caring for your neighbor, because I understand that hospitality is kind of your calling. You know, would you say that's accurate, or at least one of them?

[: 29:58

(Andi)

Yeah, it — well, it has been in terms of work and then as — yes, so it has been —

[: 30:05

(Charlie)

But it's also a foundation or part of being a disciple of Christ.

[: 30:10

(Andi)

Yeah. So, then, you know, so, some people may have more of a proclivity towards, you know, in that way, but it's something that we're all called to as part of our neighbor love. And so, it doesn’t need to have only one look. It is a way of being in the world, and it’s a way of following Jesus in something that we're all called to.

[: 30:35

(Wanda)

So, if you have that mindset, which I fully agree with, then the question becomes, in the general workspace, because you had an opportunity to apply that hospitality in what I would say, is a really unique way. You know, you're doing it every day at the Art House, which not everybody has that opportunity to do. So, in a traditional office, what would hospitality look like to you? And how can we bring that into our everyday work a little bit more when we're in more traditional settings? What would that look like?

[: 31:12

(Charlie)

Sure, yeah. I think it would look a lot like what we tried to do, and didn’t often execute well, at the Art House. One of the things that was primary to what we did was, we thought about what it was like for people to walk up to the building and to where they would enter into the building. And it became common — we quickly realized that people sort of naturally wanted to enter into the kitchen space first. And so we have multiple doors that they — like, there were three doors you could come into, right? Including a big, you know, giant, you know, like, “enter here” door. And so few people ever went to that door, it was just crazy. I mean, in fact, it would be so rare. Like, if someone knocked on that door, we'd be like, what is that? That is so weird. But no. People would just naturally — and so, when we built some of the infrastructure in the gardens that came sort of from the parking and driveway area, we just, we decided, okay, we're just going to make that, we're going to follow what people kind of naturally want. And so we lead them into — so, people entered into the Art House via the kitchen. Now, the problem with that is, sometimes it creates a logjam in the kitchen, because people wanted to stay in it. But the point of it was, is that there was something about walking through the gardens. Right? So, that would slow people down. Because they would stop and they'd see all this beauty that Andi had created in the gardens, right? And then they might want to say, well, what is that? What is that flowers, that bloom, you know, and we would watch them sometimes through the window, and see them kneel down and rub their fingers on the Lamb's Ear or something, and they would work their way up, climb up the steps, come onto the porch there, enter in, and then immediately, now you have the smells of the kitchen, right? Because if they were coming there for something, usually something was being cooked or baked or something, right? So, and it was kind of a big kitchen, big, bigger space, you know, than our normal homes because of the fact that it had been in a functional church at one time. So, that in itself, too, and everything was warm, you know, it was hard pine floors, warm colors, and it just created a mood. And this is when I realized that imagination and creativity are so critical and essential to life, that they have the power to create a mood. They have the power to create the tone by which everything that happens after you enter the building, right? So, from a business standpoint, like, if I were opening a business, a brick-and-mortar business today, or if I have employees or any of that, that would be one of the things that I concentrated on. First of all, for my visitors, you know, my customers who might be coming to me, but also for the people that I would be working, I would want them to come to a place that they said, “I can't believe that I get to come here every day and work.” And when they walked in, I would want them to feel like, “I'm not walking into a cold environment that I can't wait till 5:30 So I can leave. But I'm actually walking into an imaginative, creative space that was created for me to do my best work.”

[: 35:36

(Wanda)

I really liked that. Because I think, you know, as we're talking about this, the idea that I have is that we talk a lot about creating a feeling or a mood or an experience for the customer. But I don't know, if we talk about that so much for the employee, and whether or not we can, you know, make the office, give them a feeling that they can't shake that's positive. And so that feels to me like that's what you're suggesting that they do.

[: 36:06

(Charlie)

Yeah, yes. I mean, you know, the big tech corporations that, you know, since I've done quite a bit of work for Facebook, or for Meta, and Facebook and Instagram, we've actually toured the campuses out there that are massive, I mean, they're like, it's like a little city. You know, it’s 40,000 people. And they try to, they do a pretty good job of it, although there's a little bit of a suspicion that some of it is so that you'll stay there and never leave. But on the other hand, the fact that you can go on the rooftop, you know, and walk for, what, I mean, you can practically do, like, a mile loop on the rooftops, you know, and it's all green space. And so they do a lot of Walk-and-Talk meetings. And so, I think things like that, that is attractive to people. That helps them see, like, “Oh, I don't just have to sit at my desk. I can, you know, I need to have a 1:30 meeting. And let me call that person and see if they want to do a walk-and-talk instead. And let's just get outside for a bit.”

[: 37:23

(Wanda)

Sure. Well, I think that speaks, too, to like, having this balance, you know, where you're taking care of yourself. And Charlie, you had mentioned, you know, you were having some health issues. So, we do need to have this balance where we are practicing some self-care, or we will burn out. So, would you wanna talk about your story there a little bit?

[: 37:41

(Charlie)

Yeah, I would I mean, I, if you don't mind, I’d rather have Andy set it up. And so, I think, and then have me pivot off, just say just a little bit about a Sabbath mindset. I mean, you talked a lot about self-care. But let's talk about the ultimate self-care.

[: 38:07

(Andi)

Okay, well, you know, as many people do, especially now, we have done so much of our work — we have worked from home, which we still do, but we did for many years in this other setting. And we did not, we're not very good at taking care of ourselves in the midst of constant pressure to do more, constant people coming, constant recording deadlines, or writing deadlines, family need that's going on in the midst of it all. And so, I longed, and eventually, you know, we were always working at, how do we have a sustainable vocation in the midst of the callings that we felt that we had. And we once went and heard the author Marva Dawn. I don't know if you've heard or read any of her books, but she wrote wonderful books on Sabbath and a Sabbath way of life. Which is basically the one-in-seven concept, that you do your work, whatever all your work is, in six days, and the seventh day, whatever that seventh day is, you rest from your work and your worry, which is a pretty big, it's a pretty big thing to do. And it's very intentional. And we’re still learning to practice that now. But it is a very healthy and life-giving thing to have both one day a week for that, but also to come to some point in your day and say, “I need to turn to other things now, because I am not big enough to just continue to keep pressing and pushing and thinking that I — basically it's a Messiah Complex, right, that we can be the Messiah and Savior, the person who can just, doesn't have human limitations, when we actually are created to have human limitations. And that's a very good thing. It's the way that we're made. We can’t — we push against that to our detriment, and to everybody around us, to their detriment, because it just, it makes that kind of inside sickness and outside sickness.

[: 41:03

(Charlie)

Yeah, yeah. And that was great, thank you. That's exactly where, how I wanted you to tee me up. And so, because I knew the ins and outs of a Sabbath theology intellectually and was also, you know, very grace-oriented, you know, knowing that, if I, in a sense, broke the Sabbath, you know, there was grace for that. I knew that there was a lot of wisdom in what Andi had just said. But I had a motivating force inside me working against any sort of ideas about Sabbath rest, dependence on God, all of those sorts of things, right? I left high school when I was 16. I was married at 18. You know, long before even we were married, I was very independent. And I have basically felt most of my life that I had to do it, whatever it is, I have to do it, and I have to get it done, I have to do well, I have to make the money. I have to succeed. All these haves, haves, haves, you know, it's like, all resting on me to do this. Andi never put any of that on me. These are all things that I put on myself. And it took, it's taken me my entire adult life to get to the point where I have come to understand why I am that way. Not why I was that way, because I still am that way, but I'm getting better. You know, I'm healing. I'm healing from those things that have driven me. And for your business listeners, you know, I mean, as they can tell, because of that, I mean, I've been an entrepreneur, right, my entire life. And that means that there's been — no one's writing me a check. Right? I'm going out there. I'm imagining it. I'm creating it, and I'm bringing it to market. Right? And if people don't show up, if they don't buy what it is that I'm bringing up, right, then we're not getting paid. And so there's a sense, you know, there was an old saying, still not exactly sure what it means. But I grew up with, you know, my grandparents saying, “Strike while the iron’s hot.” And that is just, that's just as much a part of me as like, sort of Old West paternalistic kind of ideas, you know, our, I mean, it's just like, uh-uh. You know, things are hot right now, and we’ll rest when they're not, you know? And that was just really my mentality. So much my mentality. And I think if you were to interview a whole number of artists in different fields, they would tell you the same thing, because it's really hot right now. But you know what? In three months, Hollywood could be on strike again. And that's just the world that I lived in. And it was the world that almost killed me. And I ended up eventually, just having the mother of all nervous system breakdowns and getting this disorder called central sensitization, which is a kind of wind-up disorder where you spent your whole life winding up this pain maintenance thing. And in dealing with, in my case, it’s dealing with some childhood trauma. But it's also dealing with always having your fight or flight, your — it's called dysautonomia, but always having that engaged, right? And so that, I can go back and follow my story from the time that I was a teenager and see that I was developing this hypervigilance. Right? So, it's another way of saying it's like I see too much, right? I hear too much. I feel too much. I'm always thinking, like, never shutting off my mind, never not having ideas, all of that kind of stuff, which in some cases, the whole world will applaud you for. Right? Right? I mean, that. Depending on where you stand about Elon Musk, I mean, one of the reasons why he's Elon Musk is that he never stops having ideas, right? He never stops getting funding for those ideas, never stops being successful out there and so on and so forth. Right? And part of the reason why I didn't get well, or didn't crash and burn and then start on the path of wellness sooner is that there was the sound of applause and the ringing of the cash register for that kind of behavior.

[: 46:59

(Wanda)

I can relate myself. I am, as you are, a recovering workaholic. I'm working on it just like you are. But learning to draw those boundaries, I do think is so important. And I think as you try to learn what your body can handle, and think about, okay, well the world says that success is this. But I have to say success is something completely different because my body is saying no, I can't handle this anymore, right? And so, I think that is a learning experience that we all kind of have to go through, because I think the world will push you to do more. And if you listen to that, it's just gonna keep giving you that message.

[: 47:40

(Charlie)

It’ll never be enough.

[: 47:42

(Wanda)

It’'ll never be enough. Exactly. There's always something else to do. Right? There's always another project to take on. Like, it'll never stop unless you stop it. Right? And that is a choice that you can make. But Andi, you talk a little bit about the definition of success in the very last section of the book. And I think that is maybe what we can close on. Because I think that if people can grasp that, that success isn't really what they think it is, and you talk about, like, the definition of success versus fruitfulness. So, can you tell tell listeners about that? Just a second?

[: 48:24

(Andi)

Yes. It is a word that I have…

[: 48:31

(Charlie)

Disliked?

[: 48:33

(Andi)

Well, I just, I really, I don't relate to the word success. And I just don't, it's just not, I don't think through that word. I wouldn't even really know what, how that is applicable to me. I never have. And then, because as we understand the word success, it's so often equates with something that you can measure. With numbers. It's how much you sell. It's how many you know, right now, it's how many social media followers you have. It's all of those things, but it's always wrapped up in some kind of way of measuring your value. And then, yeah, so, it really, that's where it hits us is, oh, our value is dependent on these numbers that we can measure somehow, which, if we take apart our theology, most of us would know, if we follow Jesus at all, or read the Scripture at all, that's not how God values. God values us just because He values us. So, it's just a fact. And, but the fruitfulness part is what has been so helpful, to think of the better way of thinking of how your life adds up is to think about fruitfulness. What is fruitful? What are we doing that might be fruitful? But even then, to me, it's a beautiful thing because fruitfulness is not really something that's up to me to measure or to even be able to say, “Oh, I just did that thing, and it's fruitful.” You know, it's really something that, it's more mysterious than that. It's something that we just don't have to worry about, I don't think. I think we can set our compass in things that we know are valuable, but the fruit that's produced is more of what God is doing. And it's something that's being done in ways that are probably so often just the smallest things, the quiet things. I have been really reminded lately of just the quiet work of being a Christian, the quiet work of, you know, raising families, the quiet work that the church does when it's being the church and actually loving and feeding and sheltering and welcoming, and doing all those things that, that are just, you know, it's just, it's quiet. It's not something that you're putting a megaphone to it, or you're not taking pictures and putting up on social media, or any of that is the quiet good. And I think the quiet good is something that has so much value, that we're not able to see it or quantify it, but I do trust that, so often, those are the places God is working in a ways that we can't see, or know. But I think we can, we can just kind of rest in that and say fruitfulness is God's work. You know, we get, we have a place of where we can get up and try to be faithful to what we know for that day or for that week or, you know, in our life as we understand it. So, faithfulness, dependence, grace, for all of our imperfection, all of that. But the fruitfulness is God's work, and I find a lot of rest in that.

[: 52:49

(Wanda)

I think that's really wonderful because I think especially on the business side, there's this message that you have to kind of take control of things. And that's really hard to let go of. But this idea of fruitfulness is basically saying you don't, you don't, I mean — and that's the message of the gospel, too, is that you don't have to worry. He's got it covered, you know, and He'll give you the path, and He'll give you all of those simple little things to enjoy while you're here, and even more, you know, when the afterlife is there, even more to enjoy, and you just gotta come along for the ride wherever He takes you. You know?

[: 53:21

(Andi)

And the ride is very, very meaningful. Full of meaning.

[: 53:38

(Wanda)

Yes. So if we talk about meaning, is there a particular scripture verse that has given you a lot of meaning, and that you take away as you're working through things?

[: 53:38

(Andi)

Well, I'll give you mine for right now. And this is, these two scriptures are particularly right now for me, because I'm in a lot of, as we're promoting a book, and just doing all the work of that, I need this reminder often, in fact, most days. And it's Psalm 23. It's, “The Lord is my shepherd. I lack nothing. He guides me along the right paths for His name’s sake.” And, boy, that's just, I can soak in that and just, you know, every day, I can soak in that. I can rehearse it in my mind. And then a little portion of Psalm 92 has been important to us both, and it's been my prayer for us. And somewhere in my 50s — I'm 68 right now — I started, I came upon this scripture and really heard it I think, in a good way, when I was in my 50s. And it’s Psalm 92. “They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green.” And that just really inspired me to think, “Oh, God will keep us fresh and green.” Again, it's what He does. Even if we're wrinkled and gray, and when, you know, we don't have the same energy that we have, because we are in the natural process of aging and all these things happen that are common to humanity. But God is making us fresh and green, because it's an internal thing. It's what He is doing. And so we started praying that. I started praying that. “Lord, you know, help us bear fruit in old age. Help us stay fresh and green.” And I've been praying that for quite a good, long time. So, I still don't think I can tell you exactly, well, okay, in answer to that, God is doing this. But that's our prayer.

[: 55:58

(Wanda)

And I love it, because it's really, I mean, it's coming across like it is an invitation to have God do what He will in whatever you're doing. Yeah, I think that's lovely. I really do.

[: 56:09

(Andi)

Yeah. Well, it’s kind of an open — you open your palms. Yeah.

[: 56:17

(Wanda)

Well, I really appreciate everything that you have shared with us today. And speaking of scripture verses, would you mind if I close out with a prayer for you guys?

[: 56:25

(Charlie)

Oh, thank you.

[: 56:28

(Wanda)

Of course. So, God, I just ask your blessing on Charlie and Andi, today. They have taken their time to serve you by being on the show today. Let them continue the work that they are doing with their book. I know that there will be many other people served through that. And I ask that you continue to make things fresh for them. And that they are able to touch as many lives as possible through the work that they do. In Jesus’ name, Amen.

[: 57:00

(Charlie)

Amen.

[: 57:01

(Andi)

Thank you, Wanda, so much.

[: 57:02

(Charlie)

Yeah. Really enjoyed this, Wanda.

[: 57:05

(Wanda)

Thank you.

[: 57:06

(Charlie)

And we pray good things for you and your work, as well.

[: 57:09

(Wanda)

Thank you. I appreciate it.

[: 57:18

(Wanda)

That’s where Charlie, Andi, and I left off, everybody. I hope after listening to all that you can see what I meant about all they have to share, all the wisdom they’re pouring out for people. I’ll encourage you again to go get a copy of their book, Why Everything That Doesn’t Matter, Matters So Much: The Way of Love in a World of Hurt. You know, I’m not getting anything for that recommendation. I just really see value in all of the encouragement and honesty they’ve packed into it. It’s genuinely an amazing read you’ll want to recommend to other people. Now, in two weeks, my next episode is gonna be about passion. The real meaning of that word might surprise you and even change what you go after in your career. Until then, everybody, be blessed.