Greetings and salutations, everybody. I’m Wanda Thibodeaux, your host, and this — right here — is Faithful on the Clock, the podcast for Christian professionals where every can gets recycled to get your faith and work aligned. Today, we’re talking about toxic leaders, and we’re doing that partly because having a tough boss or manager has such an influence on what you’re able to accomplish, but also because it ties to your mental health. I’m also factoring in the fact that people are doing gig work and hopping around in their careers more, which makes it way more likely that you’ll have to handle a toxic leader at some point. The story of David and Saul is filled with insights about how to respond to this kind of mistreatment, so let’s get started.

So, if you’re not familiar with the relationship between David and King Saul, you can read about it in 1 Samuel. But at the beginning, King Saul is not mentally well. He’s disobeyed God by not waiting for the prophet Samuel before making sacrifices, and he hasn’t completely destroyed the Amalekites the way God instructed him to do. And in 1 Samuel 15:24, he admits that he sinned these ways because he was people-pleasing. He’s caught up in the appearance of things and cares more about that than really loving and obeying God. So, that’s the context in which God removes his favor and allows an evil spirit to, you know, torment the king. And Saul is trying to find some relief for this. And so, one of Saul’s servants basically says, “Hey, I know this young guy who’s a pretty good lyre player. Let’s go get him so the music can calm you down.” And so David comes to Saul and plays, and Saul likes him enough to make him his armor bearer. And to be an armor bearer, that shows you the relationship that they initially had, because armor bearers, the king has to trust them to be ready. They’re confidants, and the position is really a high honor. But, you know, David’s still young. And so he’s going back and forth between Saul and his father, Jesse, to help out at home while still serving the king. And it’s while he’s tending his father’s sheep that Samuel comes and anoints him as the next king of Israel. And the next big thing that happens is that Jesse sends David out to where his brothers are camped out with the Israelite army. They’re in a big conflict with the Philistines. And who comes out of the Philistine army? Oh, just a little guy — really little guy — by the name of Goliath. Goliath was a giant and just this powerhouse warrior. But David ends up killing him with his slingshot. And that’s significant first because you have to understand that, because Samuel had already anointed him, David wasn’t completely clueless about how God might use him. That’s part of the reason he had confidence in front of Goliath in the first place. But what happens is, people of course hear about David killing this giant. And the people just absolutely love him as he starts getting a reputation as a fighter. He’s a hero. And so, in 1 Samuel 18:7, the women, they’re celebrating. And eventually they sing this song about how “Saul has slain his thousands, but David has slain his ten thousands.” And King Saul hears this. And from that point, Saul starts to get really jealous and fearful of David. And he’s like, “They’re saying he did so much better than I did, so what else can he take but my kingdom?” It really is the point where the whole relationship starts to go south. And so, over time, King Saul starts to kind of lose it. David goes back to Saul to play more music, and Saul throws a spear at him not once, but twice. And he starts plotting. He sends David out to fight, hoping he’ll get killed in battle. That backfires and just makes David more popular, because David keeps winning his fights. So then Saul tries to get his daughter, Merab, to marry David. He says, “I’ll give her to you, just go fight for me.” He’s still hoping to get David into a position where he’ll get killed. David refuses, but eventually, he does marry Saul’s other daughter, Michal, who was legitimately in love with him. But again, to do that, he goes and kills a bunch of Philistines, and Saul is just super angry that nothing is stopping this guy. So, he throws his spear at David again, and Michal has to help him escape. But through all this, David has become best friends forever with Saul’s son, Jonathan. And Jonathan at first doesn’t believe his dad’s trying to kill David. But when Jonathan is talking to his dad about David, Saul comes right out and says David has to die. And because Saul sees Jonathan as, you know, helping David or conspiring with him, Saul then throws his spear at Jonathan, his own son. I guess the spear throwing was just Saul’s thing or something. But all of this sets up David fleeing from Saul. And David has to keep wandering around to avoid getting killed. Saul just pursues him everywhere. But as David is wandering around, people are following him. He’s still leading people, because they trust him. And on two separate instances, Saul and David have the opportunity to fight. One time, Saul comes right into the cave where David is, to go to the bathroom of all things. The other time, David and Abishai sneak down into Saul’s camp and steal his spear and water jug. But both times, David lets Saul go because he knows God chose Saul to be king. He’s like, “I’m not challenging the authority of God. No way.” And so it’s this really tense dynamic that unfortunately is still really common in abusive relationships, where they fight, kind of kiss and make up, and then they fight again. But this continues all the way until Saul dies. They do not find permanent peace with each other.

So, what can we take from all of this about dealing with toxic leaders? The first thing is, recognize that you can be anointed but not yet appointed. Remember, Samuel put the oil on David’s head. David knew what was coming. But he wasn't there yet. And so often, that’s the case in the workplace, too. We’re learning the skills and capability and even maybe have the calling to be where the leaders are, we’re getting there, but God doesn’t let us have the authority right away. So, just realize that you’re not necessarily in the wrong place if you’re stuck under somebody who’s not that great. It might just mean God is still forming you and getting you ready to step into the position when the time is right. You know, so many times with my writing, I’ve thought, “Wow, these editors, these other writers, I could do better. They’re just — they’re holding me back.” And now, I look back and I’m like, “Oh, my goodness, I was so not ready to step into that project. Thank God I didn’t get that job, because I would have fallen flat on my face.” And so now, I’m way more patient. I’m still ambitious, sure, but I’m not looking to set my own timeline so much anymore. I get that God’s gonna move me into the authority when I’m actually ready for it.

Secondly, look at the motivations for the way the toxic leader is around you and other people. Toxic leaders are often threatened by the gifts others bring to the table. And what we see with Saul is that he got insecure. The more that David proved himself as a warrior who could lead and earn the love of the people, the more Saul compared himself and lost a sense of how qualified he was himself. He essentially started punishing David for doing a good job. I know a lot of you out there have had that happen, maybe with a boss saying, “Oh, we can’t promote you, you’re too valuable where you are!” Or maybe you’re cut out of meetings or suddenly start getting micromanaged so the boss has control of your voice, or maybe your manager says, “Wow, you did such a good job — here’s a bunch more work with no extra pay.” And Saul allowed that insecurity to activate all of the self-protective mechanisms he had. And because he started acting with the intent to protect himself, that made him dangerous. And I’m not saying here to whitewash how horrible someone is to you, okay? I mean, you can’t really ignore a spear or verbal attack being hurled at your face, right? That’s like trying to tell yourself a brick to the head was just a love tap — it totally distorts the reality of things in the name of false peace. But when you understand that their actions are about their insecurity or whatever else and not about you, that enables you to keep showing up and not shrink back from whatever God’s leading you to step into.

The third takeaway is, like I pointed out earlier, David had the chance to kill Saul multiple times. He could have quote unquote “fixed” the problem. But rather than let Saul and the situation deform his character, he stayed focused on God. He set clear boundaries that rooted his integrity. So, when you’ve got a leader who leaves a lot to be desired, don’t ever compromise your values to match the dysfunction. You never have to come down to their level.

Then, I want you to hang on the relationship David had with Jonathan, or even Michal. Jonathan especially was an ally to David. They vowed to help each other and made covenants with each other at multiple points. And those relationships, you know, they didn’t stop Saul. But they helped David to understand that there were still people he could trust, and they helped protect him from the worst of what Saul was trying to do. So, whenever you can, build solid connections with other people, even if they’re not directly in the business. They’re gonna remind you of your worth and help you remember you don’t have to survive alone. I have a friend I’ve known for quite a while, and they’re — you know, super smart, just one of the most grounded people I know. But even as different as we are, you know, it’s not like they could step in and fix everything I’ve been going through. Not even close. But being able to come to them and be like, “Look, I’ve got this situation. I need some feedback here.” — that honestly…it just made me feel like maybe finding an answer was doable. Because they were a mirror for me. They held up my strengths in front of me so that I listened a little more to the calling God gave me. And when Scripture talks about Jonathan and David loving each other, I think maybe that’s what it’s talking about, that love that comes from the fact someone helps you trust not just them, but yourself, too. There’s a deep appreciation inside of that that makes it almost impossible not to be kind and reciprocate. And that kind of bond, it’s formative. And it becomes really hard to break.

Now, this next point, I know it’s gonna be hard for a lot of you out there. I mean, I think there’s a lot more acceptance now of this idea that if someone is doing damage to you, you don’t have to tolerate it. You can stand up for yourself. But at the same time, when you are in a job, it still puts you in this bind, because it’s like, “Yeah, they’re a bad leader, but I’ve got bills to pay. I don’t know if I can find a different position if I walk out.” And the first thing I’ll say there is, first, remember that God is always a trustworthy safety net, OK? But the other thing is, sometimes the most faithful thing you can do is leave. Self-protection is not always rebellion. Remember, David was willing to serve Saul. But he was wise enough to understand that he was not safe where he was. And by leaving, he also protected Saul from laying a hand on the person God said was going to rule. So, maybe you have to excuse yourself politely from the meeting. Maybe you say, I’m gonna transfer or go work for someone else for a while. But staying safe isn’t a selfish thing to do. You absolutely can draw a boundary for that purpose while still showing respect and kindness to the leader who has room to grow.

Which leads me to the next point, which is, if you do leave, if you are driven into a hard place or some place you didn’t expect, you don’t have to waste that time. When David was wandering, he was using his interactions to hone the skills that would define his future leadership. Even when he was hiding out in a cave with people, he was learning how to be more compassionate and fair and all of those things. So, the lesson is, let God keep developing you in the wilderness. Even when there are people who don’t want you to win, you don’t have to be deterred from your own growth. Just look at what’s around you and ask yourself how you can meet the fresh opportunities.

Then, don’t get lost in trying to “fix” the poor leader. I mentioned abusive relationships before, and psychologists will tell you that that’s what happens a lot. The person who’s getting the short end of the stick thinks it’s their responsibility to make the leader better or to resolve the conflict. But what we see with David is, Saul's not at all in a position to listen. David tries to reason with him. Multiple times, he’s like, “Who am I? I’m just your servant. You don’t have to treat me this way. Let the Lord judge between us. Let’s just have peace.” And Saul just keeps throwing his spear and chasing him around. So, if that’s where you are, you have to just give it to God. Just trust that God is going to sort it out, because He absolutely will. Your job is to stay humble and obedient and be ready to step up when God opens the door for you.

Lastly, let's take a look at how Saul dies. Saul gets critically wounded and ends up killing himself rather than letting the enemy torture and kill him. But when David hears that Saul and his family are dead, he’s just absolutely wrecked. And some of you out there might be like, “That makes no sense. How can you grieve for a guy who put your life at risk for years?” And this is where David shows a big reason God anointed him in the first place. David didn’t focus on what had been done to him. He focused on the fact that Saul was a human being. He sings what’s known as The Song of the Bow, which was this lament where he praises the good qualities of Saul and the others who had died. And this has been one of my personal goals in life. If you’ve listened to me for a while or followed me for a while, you know I had a ton of conflict with my dad. There was a ton of stuff that was absolutely wrong for him to do. But part of healing from that and not letting it keep me stuck has been understanding, you know, what he went through himself and being willing to see all the duality he had. Was he a jerk? Yep. But was he hardworking and a good musician? Did he fight for what he believed even if I disagreed with it? Also yep. So, I’m always trying as hard as I can to see people in their full context. That doesn’t excuse the evil they do. It just makes sure that I don’t erase the good as I fight against their mistakes. It makes sure that that doesn’t start to overly color who I am. So, the takeaway there is, just extend some grace. You might be surprised how that can soften a person or make a difference down the road.

So, let’s just wrap it all up as I always try to do with a few seconds of prayer.

God, let’s just face it. Not every leader out there is healthy. There are Sauls all over the place. But today, Lord, I pray for two things. I pray that these leaders find peace in You, that whatever is driving them to be toxic and harsh becomes healed. Because God, I know that You don’t want us living in conflict. And I pray that those who are in tough situations out there can share Your wisdom. Make their decisions reflect Your forgiveness and good discernment so we have space to do incredible things that bring You glory. In Jesus’ name, I pray. Amen.

Well, we’re done here, I guess. As we look ahead, my spoiler for Episode — wow, we’re at Episode 134 already — we’re gonna be breaking down the story of the woman with the hemorrhage. As we all focus more at the office on being authentic, we’ll see what she teaches about being honest about how deep your needs are, and how to respond wisely at work even to quiet or indirect asks for help. Until I drop that episode for you, be blessed.